And it’s important to bus operators, too. To anyone who travels regularly by bus, it’s self-evident that the two largest markets are young people and older people.
When you distill exactly what young people actually want to see improved in their bus service, you get to realise that, actually, age isn’t an issue at all. Leaving aside free travel for those over 60-ish, everything else of importance to young people is equally significant to everybody else, regardless of their age. Sanctuary (in the form of shelter), punctuality, reliability, accessibility, mobility, capacity, purity (cleanliness), security and informity (information) know no age barriers at all.
So, it will be interesting to hear what the committee will add to the debate. Dare they consider things from the opposite perspective, though. The times when inconsiderate young people—not all of them, not on every journey—make life difficult for us more mature types as we try to share the same space within a confided glass and metal box on wheels.
47 comments:
It's interesting to debate why the typical young person expects a discount when using public transport but not when buying a shirt, meal or DVD.
Depends what (how young) you mean by "young person". Childrens' clothes are VAT free, and thus there *is* a 20% discount.
In practice, going any further than that probably stems from the idea that public transport is a public service (yes, I know, but it *was*). Public services are generally paid for based on the ability to pay rather than based on the cost of the actual service. Young people and old people people generally have a lower ability to pay, so pay a lower fare. It's a blunt instrument, of course.
Neil
Is it because its not regarded as a 'purchase' in the same way as 'items' which they will still have 'in their hand' or eat like a burger or beer!
Its good to have the enthusiasm but they don't seem to understand that transport is not a 'free public service' or how the mathematics works if you reduce a fare. 30% off means you need 50% more passengers to have the same revenue and at peak times that number of additional passengers would probably mean more resources are needed.
They also demand evening buses but don't use them if you put them on!
"They also demand evening buses but don't use them if you put them on!"
I'm going to say this again, and hopefully the bus industry won't stick its fingers in its ears and sing "la la la" this time.
Evening buses are often like an insurance policy. If they are there, they won't necessarily load, but if they *aren't* there people may well consider that the risk of having to fork out full whack for a taxi home if they are late they won't even consider using the bus.
This is where bus-fare "Anruf Sammel Taxi" type services come in. You can shove one in the timetable every half hour from 1900-2200, say, but you might find only two of them actually get used.
Yet it's a concept that is almost completely ignored in the UK (does it even fit the legal framework?)
Neil
I have seen plenty of 30mins services in the evening on many routes. Of course said routes ACTUALLY serve people, its no good just doing the town centre if there nothing in it!
Ie bingo, "late open shops", swimming pool, cinema, clubs etc are based outside the town centre, in the town.....
Most town centre are like ghost towns after 7pm, with just a few pubs..
@ Anonymous 0834:
It's interesting to debate why the typical young person expects a discount when using public transport but not when buying a shirt, meal or DVD.
Two things:
Firstly, ever heard of the phrase "student discount"? Retailers in the university town I work in have and they fully understand the value of it.
Secondly, children's clothes and shoes are VAT-free and, besides which, clothes and DVDs are not an essential like bus travel is.
As for the old chestnut about evening services, my view remains that evening services are important as part of a network. Cut the network back too far and you find that the profitable daytime routes lose patronage too. The value of a weekly bus ticket over car travel is being able to use it for social events on an evening; take away that added value and take away the incentive to use the bus regularly.
Also, Busing, be careful about casting too many aspersions about "anti social behaviour" and "young people".
I've been told to **** off recently by a rude and nasty passenger. He was 74 and angry that I asked him to move out of the buggy bay, despite having not actually paid a fare. Apparently I shouldn't have asked him that as I'm a **** and he's **** worked all his **** life.
Charming.
Besides which, whistling is far far FAR more antisocial than a bit of Rihannna :o)
Even where there are evening services young people will not necessarily use them. One minute they are staying at home then the mobile rings and they 'need' to go to town now! Or just as often the reverse. If you don't want your children 'hanging around' which can have risks you give them a lift.
I was referring to an incident some years ago when a youth forum specifically requested a last bus around 10.30 from Sittingbourne to a group of villages. They had backing from pupils of several schools who lived in those communities and were adamant they would use it regularly. A town journey was altered to extend on demand to those villages. It carried a grand total of two passengers in six months.
They also requested a 'close door' on demand evening minibus service around Faversham to operate for pre-bookings for members. Not enough young people were prepared to sign up for it to start on a trial basis.
Both were services specifically requested and designed around their requests.
Back to point No 1. The point is that young people expect a discount as a right. Although many retailers will offer a student discount it isn't automatic in retail and is done to grow revenue. I suspect many bus operators would be pleased to offer a 10% discount rather than the current mixed offer which varies between 25 and 50%.
The larger the number of passengers that qualify for discounts may mean the full fare paying passengers fares have to rise to cover the shortfall.
In some cases the local rail fares are now cheaper than adult bus fares between towns.If the government would like to introduce a properly funded national scheme for the young adults...oh,hang on,that's been tried with the over 60s and look what that has done !
Neighbouring counties often have differing 'discount' schemes for the 16-19 age range,and it causes much confusion when boundaries are crossed.
Given the huge costs of motoring for this age range,perhaps normal bus fares are not so bad in any case ?
Go North East offers a 'commercial' young person's off peak flat fare of 90p single, a maximum peak time fare of £2.20 (depending on distance travelled), and an all-day ticket for £3.50. How much cheaper than 90p off peak single can you get?
"Firstly, ever heard of the phrase "student discount"? Retailers in the university town I work in have and they fully understand the value of it."
And many bus operators offer something similar with a range of student or young persons discounts in order to entice younger people to use the bus and thus grow their revenues.
"Secondly, children's clothes and shoes are VAT-free and, besides which, clothes and DVDs are not an essential like bus travel is."
Clothes are VAT free because they are deemed as essentials by government like most foods are. If the government were to offer a similar excemption from taxation to bus operators for carrying children then operators may be more willing to offer greater discounts but as it stands any discount to children/younger persons is usually provided entirely commercially unlike the previous oap concessions (prior to the farcical free pass) which had a degree of refund from local authorities.
The level of younger person discount is often what it is because thats the discount its always been, usually somewhere between 33-50% off the normal adult fare. If the bus industry started from scratch in this day and age I'm sure it would be very different with discounts offered only when there is commercial incentive, i.e. to fill capacity during quieter periods and not in the peaks.
The Youth Parliament campaign is admirable and 20 years ago I'd probably be up there campaigning with them but a reality check on what is feasible/affordable/who's going to pay for it is required if the campaign is going to be taken seriously. Personally I'd prefer to abolish tuition fees for students over giving bigger discounts on bus travel.
@ Anonymous 1157
Back to point No 1. The point is that young people expect a discount as a right.
As they should, too. They're not adults so they shouldn't have to pay adult prices. They don't for anything else.
@ Anonymous 1407
Go North East offers a 'commercial' young person's off peak flat fare of 90p single, a maximum peak time fare of £2.20 (depending on distance travelled), and an all-day ticket for £3.50. How much cheaper than 90p off peak single can you get?
When I was at school I was entitled to a half fare concessionary pass until I left sixth form aged 18. I went to school under West Yorkshire PTE but I know Nexus offered the same deal. I'm not old, I left school in 2001.
This was removed some years ago to pay for the "free" bus passes for over-60s. Over-60s who have more money, more spending power, and more choice over transport choices.
Which also goes some way to answering your question: you can get 90p cheaper than a 90p off peak single.
Yes, damn those young people for wanting something for nothing. Not at all like those older people who, er...
@ anonymous 1432:
Clothes are VAT free because they are deemed as essentials by government like most foods are.
Adult clothes and shoes are charged at the standard VAT rate of 20%, you know.
I always find it amusing the bias you lot have towards the younger generations. As a frequent traveller, and still being in full time education, I bet my views will differ to yours. But anyways:
If you take away the free fares from pensioners, then they'll complain. They expect a right to free travel. Even those who are particularly well off (money wise), would complain like anything should they lose their free travel. Personally I think that they should pay a small something to travel, not much but at least something.
As for student fares. Students, particularly of my age, don't have much money. I'm at school five days a week, which only gives me the weekend to work. Working in the evenings is not practical, firstly as the bus service to my town stop's at 18:00, meaning that evening shifts would be impractical. Now, the average wage of my friends is around £4 an hour. I'm on £5.10 myself, which is still a lot less than any of you. Now the prices my local company charges, I would be paying, per day, to get to work as an adult £8. That's over one and a half hours pay, purely to get to work. If I go out another day, then that's another £8 gone, just on transport. Which for me, works out as half a days wage already gone. Now if this was the case, I certainly would not be using the bus company anywhere near as much as I do now. And overall, they would lose out. Me and my friends would lift share when going out, and as for work, finding something closer isn't impossible.
Now, why shouldn't buses do student fares like everywhere else? If I catch a train, there is a 33% student discount. If I go to splashdown - guess what - I get a discount. Especially in towns/cities that have universities, students can be a bus company's largest fare payers, so it's always good to have the students on your side. Just remember, a student with discounts, will bring the operator more money than the pensioner who the council are paying for...
Now, onto the next topic. Anti-social behaviour. I agree that some young people are anti-social on buses, but you are casting a bit of a stereotype. Not all are, and in actual fact most younger travellers, especially when travelling on their own, would rather get the journey over with as quick as possible. I know that when I'm travelling, I will either read, of if I end up sitting next to someone, will try my best at a conversation.
"Personally I'd prefer to abolish tuition fees for students over giving bigger discounts on bus travel."
Abolishing tuition fees on its own would be perfectly viable if we stopped these idiotic targets of 50% of young people into higher education, and instead set the bar for entry to higher education based on those who'll actually benefit from it.
Neil
Lucas
If you pop into HMV for a £9.99 DVD do you say "I'm aged (for example)17 so I'll only pay £6.66"?
I imagine not. Why therefore do you expect a different type of organisation, in equal need to profit to survive, to always offer such a discount?
@ Anonymous 1522:
Hmm, where to start?
Firstly, do bus companies need profit to survive? Stagecoach PLC paying out £1,000,000,000 in dividends to shareholders in the last five years would suggest otherwise.
Secondly, HMV offer significant discounts to students, far in excess of discounts offered by bus companies.
Thirdly, the giant elephant in the room about "undeserving young people" are all the bloody baby boomers stealing their free bus travel from the pockets of young people who can less afford it. A day ticket to get to school in Newcastle is £2.30; a day ticket for Mrs Baby Boomer to potter down the shops is £0.00.
Fourthly, bus companies are not the same as HMV. A bus ticket is not the same as a DVD. They have no rights to compare themselves to other companies until they get their house in order. A response to a complaint about persistently late buses is frequently met with a resounding meh, as though the punctuality is unrelated to the service purchased.
Just a few thoughts.
Anonymous @15:22
"If you pop into HMV for a £9.99 DVD do you say "I'm aged (for example)17 so I'll only pay £6.66"?"
So working on that logic, people with free bus travel should therefore walk into HMV and ask for it for free? Sounds to me that's what you're saying...
Unlike a CD, which at the end of the day we don't need, it is something extra you would buy, bus travel is essential. I can't drive yet, so the only way I have of getting around is cycling, and to get to work, it's 34 miles each way. Somehow I don't see that happening.
At the end of the day, you're most likely earning a lot more than we are. Often pensioners get more money than we do, by far.
Now, a question for you. Are pensioners adults? Because the dictionary reference is that they indeed are. So why don't they pay the child fares?
In regards to my last comment. The last line should read:
Now, a question for you. Are pensioners adults? Because the dictionary reference is that they indeed are. So why don't they pay the adult fares?
Oh, and for reference, have google of NUSCard, or UCASCard. Both offer significant discounts in many stores around the country.
Young people need to be encouraged to use the bus as they are the adult fare payers of tomorrow. The bus industry needs an income stream independant of government hand outs (like ever dimishing concessionary fare re-imbursement)in order to grow their business.
Discount fares or a loyalty scheme are therefore worth considering to generate good will and an investment in future full fare paying custom. Same applies to actually serving where young people need to go. Most small town bus networks confine themselves to town centre shoppers market, and thus they shut down and ignore potential evening trade. What about sport centres, multiplex cinemas, out of town shopping malls, colleges for evening classes etc? If these places can't all be served easily by direct buses what about a hub and spoke system with timed interchanges? In the US this is called a 'Pulse' system.
"I'm going to say this again, and hopefully the bus industry won't stick its fingers in its ears and sing "la la la" this time.
Evening buses are often like an insurance policy. If they are there, they won't necessarily load, but if they *aren't* there people may well consider that the risk of having to fork out full whack for a taxi home if they are late they won't even consider using the bus."
What a condescending thing to say! That pre-supposes that bus companies don't make that calculation.
The truth is that they do, and have done so for years, as well as the impact of withdrawing evening on daytime ridership and sales of travel tickets etc.
As for taxibus services, the fact is that in many areas, taxis are now the chosen method of many an evening traveller. As noted earlier, you've got a fragmentation of evening traffic objectives e.g. city centre pubs and clubs vs out of town multiplexes. Also, the end of the traditional "last bus" mentality once licensing hours were relaxed.
Back on reduced fares for children, well that's a well worn track. In most university towns and cities, operators most certainly court that market.
I know from some of my contacts that the market for 16-19 yr old tickets has increased as, has been noted, the increasing cost of car insurance etc plus the issue of NEET unemployment; they can't afford cars!
BTW, love the comment "besides which, clothes and DVDs are not an essential like bus travel is." Clothes are less essential than bus travel..... Sounds more Naturist Express than National Express methinks!!
David
"Clothes are VAT free because they are deemed as essentials by government like most foods are" was prefixed by the line above:
"Secondly, children's clothes and shoes are VAT-free and, besides which, clothes and DVDs are not an essential like bus travel is."
Clearly, that poster was referring to children's clothes, you know!
Free travel for senior citizens is central government policy and bus companies are reimbursed by local authorities to compensate for that free travel. Bus companies can see many good reasons for charging senior citizens a fare but that is not a choice open to them.
The argument about such a policy also applying to young people is well made.
Point 1 in this debate purely enquired why discounted travel was an expectation of right rather than a wise commercial decison made by a bus company - don't think we've answered that yet.
Haha, I live in Newcastle. Given the state of our Saturday night revellers, clothes are definitely optional!
My point was in response to the comment that kids will spend all their money on designer clothes then whinge about the bus fare. Designer clothes are not an essential.
With VAT, that is an excellent example of where adults are charged more for the same product than a child is. Children's clothes are VAT but adult clothing is not. It's an important point when you look at the whingey baby boomer anonymous further up the thread.
David said...
"@ anonymous 1432:
Clothes are VAT free because they are deemed as essentials by government like most foods are.
Adult clothes and shoes are charged at the standard VAT rate of 20%, you know."
Yes I know hence why I referred specifically to childrens clothing. The point I make is a large element of the price discount of childrens clothing is to do with a taxation break and not a commercial discount applied by retailers. A taxation break that bus operators do not receive for selling their goods and services to children.
I notice that one of the more proactive operators, Norfolk Green, offers 20% off fares for 16 - 19 year olds which does recognise that this age group is not likely to have a lot of money and should encourage them to think of the bus rather than the taxi.
Lucas said:
"Now, a question for you. Are pensioners adults? Because the dictionary reference is that they indeed are. So why don't they pay the adult fares?"
A point well made Lucas and I wouldn't begrudge young people getting a bigger discount on bus travel but the important difference between young persons discount and oap concessionary fare travel is the later is a matter of government policy where reimbursement (however pitiful) is legally binding.
Operators in most cases receive zero reimbursement for giving young people discounts therefore will only do so where it is commercially worthwhile - same as HMV. HMV don't offer student discounts because its a nice thing to do, they do it because it drives more sales into their stores and therefore more £££'s in their tills.
One advantage of the Kent freedom scheme is the number of young people who are getting into the 'bus catching' habit and staying with them when the time comes to drive at 17. Stagecoach do not extend child fares beyond 16, nor do they issue them prior to 0900 though.
Likewise with NG - their ticket range encourages people to catch buses - ISTR it was an extension of the child fares beyond 16 but might not be sure on that, they're one of only two ops I know of having single and return fares on the site.
My local authority withdrew subsidised support for all evening and Sunday buses mid way through last year, Sunday buses that'd have got me out into the countryside and allowed a pint or two in a pub somewhere too.
My response, upon moving into the area was to purchase a car. I now hardly use the bus service, except where we'd go into the county town as its too much grief to drive in- in which event we use the competitor's bus as opposed to the ex NBC oprator's service. Had evening and Sunday services been retained at that time, I'd have most likely not sought private transport. First have subsequently commenced commercial operations on Evenings/Sundays to a sensible timetable, which is good - but one wonders how much of that is prompted by the presence of a 50+ vehicle operation competing on several major corridors....
Students already get Free or heavilly discounted travel.
The problems we now have is about 70% of bus users are either trasveling for free or at a very low fare and this leads to ever incresing fares which further drives the small remaining numbers of fare paying passengers away. Typically outside of the large urban areas fares have gone up in the region of 20%. It is futher compounded by cuts to the altready sparten evening and Sunday services
Students already get Free or heavilly discounted travel.
The problems we now have is about 70% of bus users are either trasveling for free or at a very low fare and this leads to ever incresing fares which further drives the small remaining numbers of fare paying passengers away. Typically outside of the large urban areas fares have gone up in the region of 20%. It is futher compounded by cuts to the altready sparten evening and Sunday services
Lucas said...
"Unlike a CD, which at the end of the day we don't need, it is something extra you would buy, bus travel is essential. I can't drive yet, so the only way I have of getting around is cycling, and to get to work, it's 34 miles each way."
To be honest, travelling 34 miles each way to what I presume is a part-time job is probably unlikely to be cost-effective by any practical mode of transport - and I am sure it is not a typical situation. As others have said, using a car once you are able to do so is unlikely to be cheaper than the bus. I would guess that the average passenger travels little more than 5 miles on a bus, and the fare structures take account of that. The 90p mentioned by another commenter would be reasonable value for 5 miles, and you couldn't expect to cover 34 miles for that sum. I do, however, understand the frustration that such journeys are given free to people over 60, whose 'need' is probably less than yours - but that complaint needs, in the first instance - to be directed at the politicians.
@RC169
Indeed, my journey is far from normal. And the price which I pay is a bargain for the journey I go.
I personally think the way my local company does things is excellent. They charge a child rate until your 19th Birthday. Whi9ch in my opinion is a fair way of doing it.
What I do think is wrong, is the companies that charge adult fares from the age 12 upwards.
Now in regards to pensioners and their free travel. I don't have any actual complaints with that, but what I do have is with those that have free travel, but think that those who have less money than them, can not be charged a student of child rate.
My use of buses is very different from others in my age group. I can sometimes travel 100 miles on buses in just a couple of days, unlike my friends who do a trip to town and back.
A child return to my school town costs £3.50 a day, which is a lot seeing as it is less than ten minutes on the bus. If I was an adult, I would be paying £5 at least, to go to school each day. Being outside the catchment area, I don't get bus passes through school. Is it really fair to go to school, that I have to pay the same as everyone else who is travelling to work? Of which I imagine a fair proportion would claim it back on expenses, with the rest being paid enough not to worry about it...
Lucas said...
"Is it really fair to go to school, that I have to pay the same as everyone else who is travelling to work? Of which I imagine a fair proportion would claim it back on expenses, with the rest being paid enough not to worry about it..."
I would be rather surprised if your last sentence is an accurate representation of the facts - the majority of people who use buses to travel to work will be paying their fares from their own pockets, and a relatively small proportion will be in the 'money is no object' category.
The 'fairness' of your paying the same as people going to work is extremely debatable. On one level, if you are receiving the same level of service, why shouldn't you pay the same price? That could reasonably be said to be 'fair'. You also state that you are outside the catchment area for your school, which suggests that you (or perhaps your parents) have made a decision not to attend the nearest school. In such a situation, it is not unreasonable for the cost of travel to be higher than for those who live nearer to their schools, although, again, there are questions about the fairness of the calculation of charges in those cases. I make no criticism of the concept of travelling to a school outside the local catchment area - indeed, I was in the same position myself for a few years - but all decisions have consequences!
There is a lot to be said for "getting young people into the habit of travelling by bus". The more they do it, the more they will see it as a normal way to travel and the less likely they are to become car dependent as they get older.
Although it doesn't have to work like that. I'm in my 30s and I use the bus more now than I ever did! When I was at school, I got a lift there and back, and didn't go out on my own a huge amount at weekends. Once I'd passed my test, I was allowed to use my mum's car to go out on an evening or weekend (not a problem as I don't drink), so I was always "taxi driver" for my friends. When I went to uni, I travelled everywhere by bike. After uni, I got a car and – while I used buses from time to time – apart from Park & Ride it wasn't a main part of my travel pattern. But now, with the rising cost of fuel I've shelled out for an annual bus pass and I'm using it at every opportunity I get!
And I have to say that the vast majority of young people I see on the buses are very well behaved, polite, considerate and no trouble at all. There's the occasional one that spoils it, but that's just as true of adults.
Part of the problem regarding young people's fares is that practice is so inconsistent. For old people on buses, the rules are pretty straight forward (barring some flexibility around the start time or 'special' services, but those are set by the council). For young people on trains, there is a standard nationwide rule. So far, so funky. But for young people on buses, the rules vary considerably depending on the operator you're travelling with. That's confusing and may help to fuel the perceived "unfairness" when young people do have to pay full fares.
Given current school/college hours most young people travelling to and from them are travelling at peak times. Bus companies need young people to help cover the cost of the extra resource required.
Also, if the child discount is too low then once they reach adulthood they are just as likely to be put off bus travel if there is a big increase in price.
I do think though that child fares should be available up until the legal school leaving age at least and that child fares should be offered in the morning peak.
With the prevalence of web-/wap-enabled mobile devices, it would be nice to get real-time info rather than waiting in ignorance at a stop.
Why can't I get this on Traveline's www.nextbuses.mobi? There is supposed to be an RTI system in Poole/Bournemouth, yet all I *ever* get are the timetabled times.
It seems like an easy win for the operators, or whoever is responsible.
re RedRover @ 16/6 13:50
I agree with being able to get RTI, and all operators should use and promote this. I can usually get reliable information as to whether a train I wish to catch is running on time or not, and from that, make a decision on whether that journey is still the best for me. RTI would show up those routes that don't run particularly close to their schedules and would largely force operators to produce schedules they could keep to than pinching minutes here and there, not giving a stuff about bunching or buses being 10+ late on a regular basis.
I've vented my spleen about my local Stagecoach several times, wrote letters and emails of complaint to them which haven't been replied to (as has happened with others who have written in and not got a response). Over the last few months I've started logging its performance, and found it is running at about 40% punctuality (at industry standard of arriving within 5 minutes of the scheduled time), with 15% running 15+ minutes late. At over 200 journeys logged, this cannot be down to occasional bad traffic or heavy usage, it's down to bad scheduling - trying to save a bus on the route which it so badly needs. Some drivers on the route have even complained about it to their bosses but Stagecoach are having none of it.
Talking of other things we could copy from the train industry, making single and return bus fares easily available. Again this is something I reckon operators would rather keep quiet. Often all-day, weekly and other season tickets represent excellent value for money, while many single and return tickets are very overpriced in comparison and give one-off bus users a view (unfair in my opinion) that bus travel is expensive.
"while many single and return tickets are very overpriced"
The cause of that is often that reimbursements for concessionary travel are based on a proportion of the single fare.
One thing bus companies don't seem to do very well is peak and off-peak.
Neil
Eric
RTI depends a lot on the system used - quite a few systems for buses have been scrapped due to unreliability. Not sure a lot of them are worth the money invested in them by operators or authorities.
You can use the regular running time data from the RTI to produce timetables but still have plenty of late running on the route if it has several congestion hot spots on route which cause long delays on different days and times.
I think the railway tracking system is often based on lineside equipment recording when trains pass a set point on the line, while bus systems are vehicle based. The rail network is also a closed system, with pretty standard running times, unlike the road network.
There are now a few young people though where I live who prefer to use messages sent to their mobiles from the RTI system to plan their journeys rather than the printed timetable leaflets. Knowing the relability of the RTI system I prefer to use the printed version myself!
Neil,
Peak/Off peak
Personally prefer to keep it simple, rather than try and explain different fares.
Also, for quite a few companies the busier peak period is now the afternoon peak (workers, school children AND pensioners). Not a fan of railway style peak restrictions and don't think any bus company now has afternoon peak fare rules (NXWM did but got rid of it a few years ago).
Not sure if there is really many routes suitable for the rainbow fares set up used by First on the Greenline 702.
Neil - Many return tickets for journeys over 3-4 miles long are more expensive than an all-day ticket. That can't be right. There needs to be a balance obviously between one-off passengers and regulars with season tickets. The industry knows the percentage who purchase each type of ticket and adjusts accordingly.
Anonymous@23:19
I'm fascinated by your comment "
You can use the regular running time data from the RTI to produce timetables but still have plenty of late running on the route if it has several congestion hot spots on route which cause long delays on different days and times." While my 40% punctuality figure is obviously unscientific and open to flaws, do you think that an RTI produced timetable would produce a more reliable timetable?
A lot of the problem with poor timekeeping is the current obsession with clock face timetables. Now they can work for some routes but for many they do not and what you end up with is poor timekeeping.
Timetables need to reflect reality and on many routes the journey time will take longer at some times of the day then others. It can also vary by day of week.
If you want to have clockface timetables, they have to be done for worst-case, and drivers have to have the professionalism to wait time.
Neil
David said...
@ Anonymous 1522:
Hmm, where to start?
Firstly, do bus companies need profit to survive? Stagecoach PLC paying out £1,000,000,000 in dividends to shareholders in the last five years would suggest otherwise.
Are you suggesting that companies have use of shareholders money for FREE?
Generally raising finance on the stiockmarket is cheaper then borrowing it froma bank
Anonymous said...
Eric
RTI depends a lot on the system used - quite a few systems for buses have been scrapped due to unreliability. Not sure a lot of them are worth the money invested in them by operators or authorities.
The systems are reliable. It seems to be the bus conmpanies or local councils that are the problem
Anon 1937... Clearly spoken by either a) an RTI salesman or b) someone who has never suffered the frustration of working with a system.
Show my someone who says an RTI system works out the box and I'll show you a liar.
Eric
In response to my original comment on the 17th if you use produce a point to point times report on a route such as A-B-C-D-E-F it may say all 5 sections take 5 minutes each.
In reality you can have the following:
Jny 1 5 mins every section until E-F which takes 15 minutes
Jny 2 takes 20 minutes between A&B and then 5 mins each section between B&F
Jny 3 sails through on time
Jny 4 takes 5 minutes on every section except B&C which takes 12 mins
Jny 5 takes 5 mins on every section except C&D which takes 15 minutes
Jny 6 takes 5 mins on every section except D&E which takes 10 minutes.
The RTI system will show that 5 out of the 6 journeys will take 5 mins on each section and doesn't really help with deciding where to put in catch up time to improve reliability. This type of problem is probably most common on longer urban routes (including cross town and circular routes) and interurban routes.
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