Is it ever acceptable to have no stock of bus timetables at a bus enquiry office? I ask this question because two almost adjacent south coast operators were without them.
Other than for Eclipse, First’s Gosport & Fareham timetables weren’t available ahead of the 22nd April 2012 changes. It was a major alteration and they only appeared a few days after the event (rather than the more useful week beforehand, at the least). At least there are bus enquiry offices to visit in Gosport, Fareham & Poole, to ask questions. In Bournemouth, the only easily accessible place near the main bus stops for W&D information is the tourist office. Tourist staff need not always be the best people to answer complicated questions.
What are the alternatives? Smartphones and tablets. Or printouts taken off the web before the journey. If you know there will be no information at the point of travel. None of these necessarily offers a solution for spontaneous travel, not in the same way as a booklet or set of leaflets might.
It’s understood that with a considerable number of changes and possible cuts, Gwynedd county council, Wales, is no longer offering its comprehensive bus timetable booklets. Instead, library staff can photocopy or print off timetables directly for you, at 10p per service. Paying for timetables may not be to everyone’s liking (though it’s not unknown to pay for booklets, even today). But paying per sheet or service does ensure that timetables are always readily available and never out of stock. It’s quite a clever approach, don’t you think.
Additional information from Omnibuses’ Northern Correspondent
50 comments:
This topic will inevitably bring us back to the comprehensive book -v- individual service leaflet argument. It's a lot easier to keep information flowing if each service has it's own leaflet - they're cheaper to rpoduce and you can print different quantities for services with differing demand. Whilst the comprehensive book has advantages in selling a network rather than just one route, you can fully understand why W&D are loathe to produce additional copies of the winter edition now, for a 5 week period. Similarly, First may well have been caught out by the longer production time for a book, especially if there were any late (often local authority led) changes before the 'big bang' change last weekend.
Lucky to find places that even produce comprehensive timetables nowadays.
I picked up a copy of the W&D timetable in their rather dated travel office in Poole yesterday.
There was maybe 80 on display so they might still have a few left. I think there is also a timetabel change in early june so might have a new timetbale out at this time.
Is it acceptable? It all depends. If I'm a car-free tourist I will need a full area timetable to study what my options are. If I'm a commuter, a printout from the web is fine for one route's shedule.
Both examples are pretty disastrous.
But to be fair to First, it was their suppliers that let them down, rather than anything else. And they were giving out free photocopies.
And to show they do care, not only are the Southampton timetables available, they had a stand in West Quay shopping centre yesterday to give out details. Add this to the web presence which has been ready for weeks, the bus adverts and even the local radio adverts, and it shows they are trying. They survived the local rag reporting the story too - though improved services still get the usual idiotic comments at the bottom...
However, I'm not sure I agree with W&D's decision to not re-order any more of the old timetable. Is it acceptable to *willingly* not have any timetable books? Not really.
But paying per sheet or service does ensure that timetables are always readily available and never out of stock. It’s quite a clever approach, don’t you think.
Clever? Not really. What is the connection between paying for them and them always being readily available and never out of stock?
The real question is: Are bus operators in business for fun or profit? Few other industries are so poor at selling their services to the public.
Assuming the "offending" enquiry offices have a PC and a printer, which I'd bet they do, why don't *they* print some off instead of putting up notices like that?
They could also provide useful education, though - "do you have a smartphone? Here's how you access timetables through it."
Timetables for council-supported services across the UK can be difficult to find if you don't have the internet.
In theory they should be available at Tourist Offices (many now closed) and libraries (but many aren't interested).
Shaftesbury Tourist Information produce, as a service, a one page timetable showing the main routes from Shaftesbury together with connections onward.
As they are sorted bu route rather than by company/service number they are much easier to comprehend.
These sell for 10p just to cover costs and sell by the hundreds every month.
As Barry Doe has previously pointed out, walk past your local Argos store and see the pallet load (literally)of catalogues in the doorway - in the case of mine there is often a member of staff on the pavement handing them out.
I think it's a shame Bws Gwynedd have dropped the booklet. It was always very useful as a tourist to know what was on offer to plan a day out.
The Stagecoach Lakes timetable is a nice example of a good way to do this - nice and glossy but complete in information terms.
This is a bete noir of mine. Whilst I can understand that reprinting maybe just a thousand of a soon to be out of date booklet is not perhaps the best use of a publicity budget, I'll bet there are still boxes of books tucked in a library or TIC cupboard elsewhere!
If you issue publicity items to an outlet, provide a branded rack for them to be displayed in, and do the occasional "mystery shopper" inspection afterwards. I can give numerous examples, but to keep it local - let's take Weymouth.
A tourist area wich many thousands of visitors each year, potentially many without a car. The TIC will grudgingly give out a leaflet, but you have to be persistant. I haven't seen any on display for several years. TIC's seem to major on tat to be sold instead!
Weymouth Library? Useless! What's a bus timetable? is the usual refrain. And this si where you'd expect the (excellent) Dorset CC books to be available!
In Dorset I head for the Blandford Forum TIC - always on display and in good numbers as well. If one can do it, why not the rest?!
Rant over!!!!!
That's appallingly bad about Wilts & Dorset! How on earth are you supposed to sell the concept of everyday bus use without the tools to make it happen?!?
This just underlies my feelings about W&D - a third rate operator that is stuck in another era. And my God yes the travel office could so with a refurb!
When will this industry wake up and realise that we have to court new business? 70's decor in untidy travel shops, disinterested staff with no people skills and a lack of basic information to enable people to make choices about using our products. No excuse. And I don't agree with paying for timetables - Argos is an excellent comparison.
Let down by suppliers? Not good enough First. Let down by bad Management at First, more likely. Leaving it all too late. Not sending files to the printers on time? Not getting proper assurances from printers. It is weak to blame others. You can print a timetable book in house - some operators used to do just that.
Anon @ 0845
"...This just underlies my feelings about W&D - a third rate operator that is stuck in another era... " And with the recent departure of someone with imagination, not for first time from the GSC group that theory may be correct, nor do they want to have the boat rocked.
Some of their own service improvements (X6 Poole to Verwood) are dire too.
"And I don't agree with paying for timetables - Argos is an excellent comparison."
I'm sure if money is short timetables could be funded by way of advertising. The bus industry is good at taking advantage of advertising as an income stream - just apply it in another place.
The Milton Keynes timetable book, for instance, was 50p a go. It's now free, but distribution is poor. I've long thought they should take advertising, then shove one through every door. If it's sat there at home, you might just use it.
W&D seem to be unable to make their minds up and back the horse each way, with booklet timetables in Poole and route leaflets in Salisbury. A situation that has been the same for many years now.
You be HARD pushed to found a copy of the Argos Catalogue to take away with you 2montsh before the change over date.
Councils are becoming bad in producing timetables for council services yet in the 1985 transport act its say there should be doing!
Half the time TT go missing because short notice changes are put in to place, because some local complained.
I do know one company in Scotland who wasted a HELL Of alot of money on timetables reprints....... thankful there proof read the things
MD @ W&D: troll along to Brighton: comprehensive free book (inc Stageooach Compass etc) available very widely, like on every bus, in libraries, and of course, in travel shops. Also, smaller, pocket-size, central area guide and similar for certain key routes.
As someone who used to distribute home shopping catalogues and knew someone whose job it was to design and assemble "his" 32 page section (Summer goods and garden furniture in his case) let me assure you that the "free" catalogues were mainly paid for by the manufacturers of the products included, not the catalogue company. His job was to make sure that where possible all the products from one manufacturer were on one page and they were then charged many thousands of pounds per page towards what was in excess of a million catalogues.
Next time you look in an Argos catalogue you'll get the picture.
A thought...Arriva have done a ticketing mobile app, and very slick it is too. But no bus company has yet done a timetable app?
Google Maps is of course a nice way of getting at bus timetables - but then again pretty much every train company is now in on the act, so why not bus companies?
If it could include network status and RTPI where available it'd be *very* useful.
Unfair criticism from FBB, I've been told the story of why the timetable book was late, I'm not into flinging mud but lets put it this way one design agency probably won't be getting the work again. We've all had suppliers of some sort let us down in the past or does fbb live in a perfect world when delivery companies deliver on time, builders finish on time and everyone delivers as they promise.
Printed timetables WERE available from the travel shops, I saw the stacks of print outs at the Fareham shop for myself!
Criticise when its valid but don't be critical for the sake of being critical but having read fbb's blog I'm not sure I'd expect anything less.
This is a bit of a difficult issue. In my perfect world view then timetable booklets (and maps and fares info) would not run out and they would be available from a wide range of outlets.
However my first paid job was in the TWPTE Travel Centre in Newcastle. While service change leaflets were free and usually available in advance they did run out. There was an excellent County Timetable Book and Route Map (60p and 20p IIRC) and we would get queues of people wanting these when a new one came out. It was not unknown for a delivery to sell out in a day - quite amazing but then they were good publications. There were limits on how many print runs were done even back then so I can sort of understand why W&D might be reluctant to spend money on more copies. We did try to find any "surplus" copies and get them delivered to us if we'd run out.
However didn't we also have the 1970s and 80s bus world compared with our now "marketed and promoted" 21st century buses on this blog the other day? If W&D are supposed to be in the 21st century then they should have info readily available - especially given the high volumes of tourist traffic in their operating area. Others have made the valid point about web and printer facilities allowing local "emergency" printing and this should have been done too. Even back in the 80s we'd use a photocopier to give people info if they just wanted a small subset.
I do think operators have become seduced by the web and thinking that is all that is needed to give people info on their services. While it is very beneficial, if you can afford web access, I think it is wrong to exclude part of your market by not making good quality books, leaflets and maps available. The same comment applies to those local authorities who can't be bothered to meet their obligations to provide decent info on bus services. They have a bit more of an excuse given the swingeing cuts in funding from central government. Doesn't help the poor bus passenger though!
I remain of the view that there should be a national minimum standard for all public transport info and this should cover web, paper publications and bus / tram / train / metro stop info. The Traveline interface must also be standardised as soon as possible given how awful some of the regional portals are. Operators (and local authorities) can then promote to their hearts content once they met the national minimum standard.
Oh look, W&D's main competitor that Wilts are so determined that they are better than have managed to still have plenty of free timetable booklets available for their passengers . . . its called forward planning.
@ Neil - rather ironically a combination of a privately produced app using TfL data *plus* the privately produced London Bus Routes website gives me real time, status and TfL bus timetable info on my phone. Such a shame that TfL don't produce "real" timetables rather than the "every x mins" garbage on the individual stop panels.
"If W&D are supposed to be in the 21st century then they should have info readily available - especially given the high volumes of tourist traffic in their operating area. Others have made the valid point about web and printer facilities allowing local "emergency" printing and this should have been done too. Even back in the 80s we'd use a photocopier to give people info if they just wanted a small subset"
And therin lies the problem - I bet back then you cared about your passengers. W&D do not give a monkeys about them; the staff would rather shrug their shoulders and say "not my problem if we haven't got any" rather than try and help. To be fair though its never been any different - I worked for them back in the nineties and exactly the same situation regularly arose so they haven't learnt anything in twenty years . . .
Given that few local authorities have sufficient cash to cover all of their concessionary fare reimbursement liabilities, perhaps the absence of printed information is intended to drive down passenger numbers and so reduce the amount they have to pay out...
To Neil @ 1212
If you go to the following site
http://www.traveline.info/mobile_nextbuses.html
you can find information and links to FREE downloadable apps for Traveline, on apple, android and open platforms, with a choice of suppliers.
Ken - traveline Dorset
I am surprised at this from W&D. A useful source in Southampton is usually the TIC were you can simply take timetables from racks.
I think you will find that Local Authorities have a power not a duty or obligation to publicise transport services. How they do so is therefore up to them and therein lies the rub!!
As David Jenkins has pointed out in this months Buses, in Kent Arriva are usually quite good at supplying and updating outlets. The problem is that some TIC's and Libraries do not display printed information, can't find it and/or don't have a clue what is up to date. Those that use Traveline print outs - particularly for other operators services - often only print of part of the service and these copies look awful when put in racks. You also often have to risk going through an inquisition to obtain anything kept behind a desk. I get very dispirited as I also listen to other people (often visitors) asking for comprehensive timetable information or even just leaflets for specific services who give up in disgust. This is not just in Kent. I'm sure those concerned will simply deny the problem and say its all on the web or available by phone and continue to fail to understand what these prospective customers want. Oh well they can always use the car.
@ 13:12 Tell the story then. I'm sure people would like to know the real tale behind all this, and you seem to know.
@ anonymous 1428 - well that's an interesting remark about "caring for our passengers". The office was run by the PTE who, at the time, did run buses but then so did United, Northern and a few others. We sold tickets for Nat Ex, Primrose Coaches and Barton as well as excursions, holidays and a little service called Clipper.
I don't think I ever considered any of the people who I served as "ours". We just did a good job in helping people travel locally or further afield. There was no obsession about owning the clientel or fostering customer loyalty other than by doing a good job. If we needed to point people towards the United office opposite then we did so rather than denying their existence.
Anonymous said...
"Printed timetables WERE available from the travel shops,.."
So why did the travel office staff put up a notice saying that they had NO timetables - as per the photograph? Something doesn't ring true here!
@1838 I can only speak from Fareham travel shop where timetables were available but the photograph is taken through the window of a closed Gosport travel shop therefore given it was closed fairly irrelevant whether timetables were inside, tantalisingly out of reach of prospective or not, for all we know the sign could be days, weeks or months out of date, I understand the Gosport TIC next door was printing out copies of timetables for anyone who asked.
Good customer service is all about turning “cant do’s” into “can do’s” which often takes only a little thought.
If you go to Argos and find that the item you want isn’t in stock, they’ll offer to reserve one for you when it arrives, offer home delivery, they can tell you where else it’s available locally, or simply let you know when it will arrive at your local store in case you just want to pop back when it’s in. Four “can do’s” to counteract one “can’t do”. I could go on about their website, ring and reserve service, independent product reviews etc. etc. It all says we want your business, we care, and we’re prepared to make a real effort to prove it.
Now look at this notice. “Sorry we have no timetables at this time” on a board outside. Not one of the obvious solutions that some contributors have suggested, such as “You can check times on this website”, “we’ll print you a timetable”, “pop in and we’ll tell you what time the bus is due”, “we’ll post you a copy when they’re in” etc etc. You could argue that “in next Wednesday” is something of a “can do” and that because the sign’s outside they’ve saved you some time and effort, but then again that could just taken as “please don’t come in, in fact don’t come back until Wednesday, go and find you’re answer somewhere else”.
"So why did the travel office staff put up a notice saying that they had NO timetables - as per the photograph? Something doesn't ring true here!"
Nothing like a conspiracy theory, is there?
As has been pointed out, it was closed at the time. But I assume the vast number of people were asking for the new timetable books, and that is what the sign is trying to say they've not got any of. OK, it's a badly worded, but it's not crime of the century.
Some good points from Michael @ 2014, many operators can do more. Reading FB posts the operator concerned has been offering to post out copies of the timetables, few operators bother to offer that service nowadays!
Maybe it a temp staff. I can remember one at day at my local office there had boxes of new timetables but said there never had any i phoned head office and told them. There even said there have plenty i said what the staff said, lets just say head office were not very happy.
@fatbusbloke - If we all lived in a perfect world. If the supplier fails, what do you expect First to do - oh yes, print it in house - and guess what, then you would say the quality is poor - time to get real as hard copy is only a small element of travel information mediums in this day and age. Having said that your blog is even headlined as showing public transport failings so your negativity is expected !
I'd like to broaden the debate slightly. Most operators still use cash payments which are a total pain for passengers: "Sorry mate, I can't change a tenner, fresh out of the depot". Aside from introducing smart cards and other methods (it is 2012 after all), is it not possible to provide fare calculators on websites? Yes, I know the bloke with the £20 note won't use it,but some of us would!
Down here in Cornwall, the Council used to publish area books (South East Cornwall, North coast, etc). But come the massive re-tendering on 1st April, all that changed.
Firstly, on the day of the change, when Western Greyhound lost some of their routes to smaller fry operators and the route numbers changed, no timetables were available.
But the TIC advised that a whole County book was under way and would be delivered soon.
Sure enough, a week or two after the changes, a big pile of hefty 290 page books appeared in the TIC, on the floor by the door. I picked one up.
Today, I called in, as I will be having a guest staying in my holiday cottage who has specifically asked for a bus timetable, as he plans to travel about on the buses. Highly laudable - he might even be an Omnibuses reader! I promised to put one by for him.
The pile in the TIC, on the floor by the door, is now much smaller. The helpful man asked if I would share my own copy with the guest, as stocks are already running low. They are really for residents who need to use buses, rather than for tourists who would throw them away after a few short trips (or even none). So, I had to leave empty handed.
The moral of the story:
Don't switch from useful local area timetables to Countywide books without expecting to run out;
Don't imagine that locals have a greater need for such books than visitors;
and (for me):
Don't let on that I already have one, when I try and get a second one for our holiday cottage visitors!
I'm probably 'swimming against the flow' here slightly, but I think the bus industry should produce more gimmicks, useful freebies that can be strewn about the house that folks will pick up and think 'oh yeah'. Stagecoach furnished me with a moneybox, bottle opener keyring (that the branding has ironically rubbed off) and pens in their quest to sell me a unirider.
But what about a fridge magnet? I've been in a couple of houses where people have pinned bus timetables to the fridge for anyone to use, and even if it wasn't used for that purpose what better advertaisement than one you saw every time you fetched the milk?
@ anonymous 1245 - take a look at the Norfolk Green website. They have produced a fare calculator which allows you to see prices for all tickets and for specific journeys by route. I think it is excellent and a good example that other companies should follow. It's not as if they don't have the data for their services and most will hold it electronically for their ticket machines. The greater challenge is how to tie in tendered routes and who would have the responsibility for providing the info.
What a shame we don't have a "National Bus" website including fares as we have for National Rail.
I agree with John (28/4@19:37) in a way. Much of bus advertising (online, on board) advertises to those who already use the service. Recent attempts by First and Stagecoach to advertise nationally must have worked in increasing patronage, but how often do bus operators advertise specifically to those who don't use the bus? Who looks at a website? Not those who don't use bus services.
Branded vehicles appear to have some impact in promoting a service. Stagecoach near me reported a near 10% growth on a route they had targetted with specifically branded buses. However, another route that serves Cardiff has no branded vehicles, yet is cheaper than using the train whether buying a return or weekly, takes a similar amount of time as the train and has double the amount of services (even if customers need to change). Patronage to Cardiff is dreadful, especially amongst fare paying passengers. Would an advertising campaign in the area promoting the service and its cheaper fares and more services produce dividends?
Supermarkets advertise specifics, such as a 2 for 1 offer on Hovis. Why doesn't the bus industry do much of this and promote what is good and beneficial to passengers?
All just random thoughts as usual!
@plcd1
Just looked at the Norfolk Green site. The fare calculator is really excellent.
If a small operator can do it,why can't the big ones?
In Bristol there is a timetable app for the Wessex Red network, and it's actually fairly useful, the trouble is hardly anyone knows about it! http://itunes.apple.com/tw/app/Bristol-student-buses/id473973197?mt=8
The other place where a timetable should surely always be available - but often isn't with exception of one or two forward thinking operators - is on the bus itself?
"Would an advertising campaign in the area promoting the service and its cheaper fares and more services produce dividends?"
Or, dare I say it, should they stop wasting resources competing with the train, and go and compete with the car for passengers not served by trains?
Neil
Branded vehicles appear to have some impact in promoting a service.
Yes but please ensure they only run on the service for which they are branded.
Not always the case round here!
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