Who was it who speculated that during the restructure programme one of the areas New First might cut lose during was Cornwall. OK, I did. I may have been wrong.
Things in Cornwall couldn’t possibly be more opposite to developments in Dorset. In Dorset, First didn’t get through to the bidding process and was cut out from winning any contracts. Expect things to change in Dorset but not to the extent they have in Cornwall.
In Cornwall, First Devon & Cornwall (or, First West & Wales, if you prefer) has bucked the national trend for a Big Three operator and won a series of tenders. On this occasion, Western Greyhound is having to give up 12 of First’s 13 winnings to its competitor. All from 1st April.
It’s conventional wisdom that smaller operators have lower margins and fewer shareholders to please. Their resultant lower cost operations put them squarely in the frame for local transport authority work. Some—probably not Western Greyhound—don’t enhance statutory sick pay and have no, fewer or reduced benefits. LTA work has therefore tended to be one-way traffic, from larger group incumbents to smaller, independent operators. Many in larger groups accept that they cannot easily compete. Those who idly talk of establishing low cost units or specific contract wage rates tend to be daydreaming (unless you’re Damory). But in Cornwall, after decades of cuts, New First is actually making a comeback.
In the final Western National days, this service operated thrice daily on four days a week only, plus two additional days in high summer
First refers to the tenders as “additional work”. They’re right, of course, particularly as many members of the public see the green Western Greyhound buses and not the Barbie competitors as the successors to Western National, the traditional Cornish operator. But the major changes at First from 2003 onwards (and even before that under Western National) begat a series of retrenchments. Western Greyhound saw this as an opportunity and, in inverse proportion to First’s cuts, expanded greatly. Nearly all of the April routes First has won from Western Greyhound were historically and previously at some point operated by First or Western National. I suspect that the 358, once of Trelawney Tours, was also a Western National service. Grenville operated Troon to Redruth.A facet of Western Greyhound operation is that it has generally taken irregular timetables and made them clockface. Has Cornwall council perpetuated this practice? Also, Western Greyhound has upped some services considerably. Of note is the 537 Helston to the Lizard via Mullion that operated on a handful of occasions and by the early 1980s wasn’t even daily, other than during high summer. The current Western Greyhound 537 is hourly. Who knows what Cornwall has managed to retain during its cutbacks and free travel changes.
Western National dropped the 5xx service numbering introduced in 1967. With the introduction of the Cornwall Busways brand in 1982, WNOC preferred instead one or two digit service numbers. First has maintained this two-digit system. Western Greyhound, though, had numbered all its services back to the former Western National 500s. It will be interesting to see whether Cornwall council wants this perpetuated or whether First drops the 5xx.
51 comments:
Perhaps Western Greyhound are now paying for being brave and standing up to the council and heavily criticising them over their ludicrously unfair pensioner pass reimbursement plans. The dramatic improvements WG have made to services in Cornwall will now almost certainly start being undone and Cornwall's passengers will end up the big losers. Those improvements are not just in frequency but most importantly in providing long distance connections to the hospital in Truro for example. WG came in at Cornwall's request originally and are now getting stabbed in the back by the Council. Not a huge surprise given the council aren't exactly known for common sense or sound judgement.
First are also doing well winning tenders in Greater Manchester - starting at the end of last year, through the January awards and (by the looks of it) continuing in the forthcoming April revisions.
Actually there is no durable evidence of either diseconomies or economies of scale beyond fleets so small that they are not observed - there is a reason they aren't observed.
What a shame. I used WG's services last summer when on holiday; smaller independents are more focussed on delivering a quality service to the local communities. I rode in late model Solos which were clean, punctual and well driven with a variety of courteous, professional drivers. Perhaps if WG TUPE these people to First, they could improve Barbie's offering.
If First have undercut WG and others on these tenders (I don't know) are the prices sustainable?
Will we find these moving on again in a year or two when there is pressure to find a cheaper operator?
The contracts are all only for two years, hence giving the First the prefect excuse not to invest in them, even though there wouldn't have been any investment had the contracts lasted longer.
CC appear to have gone for lowest cost this time round, rather than weighted cost v quality. Hardly surpring given circumstances. What would people prefer, services being sustained, albeit woth a rubbish operator, or wholesale cutbacks as as happened on other counties?
Yes, what a shame. FDC is one of First's better companies, in my experience, but WGL is a superb operator, having worked hard at creating an excellent network in territory previously discarded by First, in partnership with a previously helpful county council. The former Truronian operations have been slowly eroded since First's buyout, an inevitable effect of a large corporation's need to constantly seek economies. More short-term thinking from those in charge of deciding what the public needs from its transport.
This is a really stupid decision by Cornwall Council and a stab in the back for Western Greyhound. Why would any sane organisation want to switch from a high quality, innovative, award winning and LOCAl operator with a mediocre monolith like First?
I can't see how they managed to undercut WG, so it must be a loss leader.
This is also an example of why I am not sure about PTEG's campaign to get more control of bus services. UK politicians just aren't of the required calibre to make sensible decisions about local public transport.
Pete
@ anonymous 13:10
It's all about ££££s, service quality doesn't come into it any more with most local authorities.
Trust me, big groups don't do big scale loss leaders any more so provided they haven't got some howling error in their costing template (and they will have scratched their heads and double-checked when awarded) the price given will cover costs and provide a return. If not, someone senior at FDC will be on a one way trip to Aberdeen.
Wonder if First will sub any out then?
Looks like a silly low bid just to damage a good independent.
While I'm as much a fan of Western Greyhound as the next man, tenders are tenders and all the operators involved know the rules.
When you're dealing with hundreds of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money, you can't award contracts based on sentiment or who you like the most.
If a prominent politician awarded a high profile contract to a company just because they liked them, the front pages would be full of it and everyone would be screaming about corruption and calling for the minister to be sacked. So why is it any different when it relates to bus tenders in Cornwall?
As anon @1403 has said, the rules within First are such that the tender won't even have be submitted unless it shows a positive return, so if they've won the tenders in a fair fight then so be it. WG will live to fight another day and in the world of contract bidding you win some, you lose some!
One thing no-one has suggested. Have Western Greyhound been a little too optimistic in THEIR pricing in the past? If they are not making money on these services and (maybe) are not big enough to carry the risk ...
Perhaps they have decided they can make bigger bucks on a smaller network. After all, it's the bottom line that matters, not sentiment
This is unfortunately a cost reduction excercise and so money is the priority. Free pass use is more important here too than nationally particularly in summer.
In London etc. the tender often goes to the operator with the nearest depot. From a quick look at the registration changes many of the routes are WG's most recent acquisitions and furthest from home, but are in First's core patch of Truro to Penzance via Redruth or Helston. The Helston routes were Truronian services before First bought them back and deregistered them. First still have a number of the school contracts in the area anyway. The actual services levels will be interesting to see. First themselves have halved their Helston Truro service.
However Williams have registered a couple of routes near to them.
First in Somerset are doing things differently too from Monday at Taunton - more regular commercial services from single depots and less contract variations. However some contract cancellations are simulating more commercial work, but we need to see the detail.
Challenging, but interesting times.
It appears that WG will no longer serve bretonside or st austell bus stations.Do first have a financial involvement here?
Anonymous said;
"It's all about ££££s, service quality doesn't come into it any more with most local authorities."
Absolutely. Just look at all the work that CT Plus have won, including the new Jersey network. All cheap and cheerful because they're "not for profit". Tendering authorities do not care about the quality of the bid anymore; all they care about is the cheapest offer. They may claim otherwise but its a load of cobblers in my opinion; I've dealt with enough councils where we've been told (unofficially) that they loved our ideas and the quality aspect but in the end went for the cheaper option . . .
This can all be explained by looking at the accounts of FDC and WG. FDC has been technically bankrupt for many years, at March 2010 it had net liabilities of £18.5 million and has annual losses of about 7%. WG on the other hand makes modest profits and has net assets of about £1.5 million.
It will have been obvious to Aberdeen that the situation at FDC can not be turned around while WG is active. They have therefore instructed FDC to get these contracts at any price. This will destabilise WG whose directors are in their early sixties and who, First hopes, will be less inclined to fight on, but will instead be willing to sell out to FDC for a few million. This will enable FDC to "rationalise" and, they hope, get back in to profit. When the Competition Commission investigates they will be told that WG was going to start losing money and that none of the other big groups would make an offer.
The ironic thing is that FDC used to have a director who knew what he was doing but First don't appreciate people with minds of their own. He went off to found a little bus business in Cornwall called Western Greyhound.
l
If nothing else we can all look back to this discussion in 2 years time when the tenders expire.
My guess is that First will be back to their old, fairly useless, ways (despite Giles) and, hopefully, WG can then come back again on more acceptable terms.
Blimey - First can't do anything right can they?
They expand their business by winning some local tenders, and it's conspiracies here and sentiments there...
@ SEV 777
"They have therefore instructed FDC to get these contracts at any price. This will destabilise WG whose directors are in their early sixties and who, First hopes, will be less inclined to fight on, but will instead be willing to sell out to FDC for a few million."
Absolute rubbish.
Comments on this blog used to be honest, truthful and well-reasoned. What's happened? The vitriol towards First shown here today is quite appalling. Some people should be ashamed of themselves.
WGL sell to First? LOL! That's one thing that will never happen.
Sounds like the grapes have turned very sour in Cornwall! It's not like First have won virtually an entire County worth of tenders wiping out several small family businesses in one swoop then spectacularly failed to deliver!
It can't be a total surprise that First has won back contracts in its "home" patch in Cornwall, mainly those that were most difficult for WGL to operate.
Perhaps both operators have got their costings about right, and First's geographical advantage wins the day! Only the two operators and CCC will know why WGL got the contracts in the first place; WGL may have bid low or First may have bid high.
Some people on here will just have a go at First whatever they do!
I dare say that First has capitalised on its beneficial position as a larger operator, but that is no reason to decry their success in these tender gains. Unfortunately, they also have plenty of semi-clapped out mid-life (and potentially step-entrance) stock to cascade internally to Cornwall to cover this new work.
Greyhound has been replacing its step-entrance Varios of late, and renewing its stock. It will be interesting to how the quality of vehicles used under First's watch compares with the well-turned out Greyhound fleet.
What is most disappointing is that WG have resorted to scaring their customers by telling them "This contract has been terminated." Why not just say, "This service will be operated by First"? It will cause unnecessary worry and frankly I thought WG were above that kind of thing.
I don't think there is any need to attack First because none/few of us will know all the facts anyway.
First, under the new management team, may well have started to turn the corner in order to gradually develop into a proper, quality, company. Only time will tell, but at least these events will be keenly observed for the next 2 years.
More assumptions regarding FDC, I see.
Currently FDC has no step entrance single deckers in Cornwall except for a Vario or two as back-up for Solos on the Mousehole.
There are some step Olympians in Cornwall but also low-floor Tridents.
The first confirmed transfers as a result of the tender wins are 1999/2000 Excels. Low-floor of course.
Having been screwed by the Council is it surprised that WG are upset. They came to the councils rescue when it looked like there would be no buses in about 80% of Cornwall following First's attempt to blackmail the council. First initially bought out all local operators then demanded higher rates for their tenders as there was no competition. Then came WG to the rescue and they have been nothing short of phenomenal at meeting customers needs and increasing both frequency and ridership. Then they question the council over their illegal pensioner pass rebate backdate and this happens! Now we have 2 years of First as they go in ridiculously low funded by the rest of First to run WG off the road and then just watch as if WG die then First will do what they did before and raise tender rates and the big loses will be passengers as ever. Unfortunately Cornwall are as corrupt and useless as First so they don't care. They just never learn. We are not being harsh about First we just live in their area and have seen the way they run down services, raise fares and have no regard for passengers. If you wonder just how great First are look at the bus graveyard that is Weymouth and also its pretty sad when the new bus being celebrated in Plymouth is a P-Reg decker!!!!! First almost destroyed the entire Cornish bus network overnight a few years back because they were too greedy and now this is the first stage of a repeat so this is not a minor issue it is one of national concern as if First succeed here they'll add Cornwall to Bristol as successes in screwing the Council and before long we'll see others. If First want domination they can just bid low, take the losses nationally and obliterate the local operators and reap the rewards later...this is not the first and won't be the last.
"First, under the new management team, may well have started to turn the corner in order to gradually develop into a proper, quality, company. "
That quality would be the 1999/2000 Excels would it!!!!!
They should sort out their existing services before destroying others
It seems when WG were able to win tenders by being the lowest cost bidder that was fine, but when it goes the other way on the same basis, it’s cost instead of quality.
In any tender situation, no matter whether it’s bus services, healthcare, widgets, bin collections or whatever, the quality is what the tender specifies. A bid for higher quality than is being sought, if it means higher cost, is a usually a recipe for a loss.
If you want to up the quality, something that would be in your interest if you were at the top end of a given market, then you have to persuade the bidding authority to specify higher quality in the first place.
Some of these comments are now getting ridiculous and bordering on libellous.
Unless anyone here is from First management, no-one knows what their gameplan is - if there is one, that is, other than simply bidding for tenders where they believe they can make a profit (and bidding lower than others in which to do so).
For all we know WG may have bid high on some routes in order to lose them. We don't know. Most of what they've lost was the more distant stuff, perhaps these operations were simply costing them more than they had expected?
I don't get the long-held assumption that all Cornish tenders are lost by First and picked up by WG. Yes, it's what's happened in recent years but there's no logical reason to say that it would continue forever without First winning some of it back.
If Anon at 21:36 is right in his prognosis (and I'd be highly surprised!), why Cornwall? There's far better bus territories out there than Cornwall over which to play silly buggers. These are marginal tendered routes for heaven's sake, no-one is going to make mega-bucks from a hotch-potch of routes (some evenings or Sundays only) requiring just 20 buses for two years.
I seriously think the 2012 Olympics should be home to a new sport - "First Bashing". Some of the comments here would win medals, I'm sure of it.
Presumably Anon @ 2136 has evidence to back up this rant:
"Now we have 2 years of First as they go in ridiculously low funded by the rest of First to run WG off the road "
Nope? Thought not! Just some other dillusional armchair transport manager nutter who thinks they know best, all rant and no substance!
I can't believe a lot of the total nonsense being written on here by people who are just making it up as they go along.
CC, like all tendering authorities, are bound by EU procurement law and the unsuccessful bidders have 10 days to challenge the result. So, if there's some big conspiracy between CC and First it will come out in the European Court. Except it won't, because there is no conspiracy. There are always winners and losers with tendering and no company has an automatic right to win work. Yes, IMO it's a great shame WGL has lost work, but that's how things work out sometimes.
And furthermore, WGL is not finished - it's only lost around 20 PVR. If this sort of loss threatened its existence then it was a distinctly rocky foundation in the first place. And as for selling out to First, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to work out who they are most likely to sell out to when the evil day comes.
First have a lot of work to do in Cornwall, given how terrible their operations became a few years back. It is pleasing to know that the vehicles being used are going to be low floor ones as for a 2 year contract there is no reason why they couldn't use step entrance buses until 2014.
As some others have commented already, much of this work is in areas where they have a stronger presence where WG is less of a major operation. There has been a lot of work in the past 6 years to improve the business from the state it was in and one can argue it is in a much better shape than it was then.
Western Greyhound recently saw some changes in personnel, seeing the departure of the manager who has run the business day to day for some 8/9 years and has been the lynchpin of the expansion from 30 to 100+ buses in that time. I gather there have been operational issues since his departure and this was part of the reason why First have secured these contracts.
WG have always suffered some service performance issues in their area, mostly due to the traffic congestion that is seasonal - like all operations there is a veneer they like to project but they too have their issues. Hsd First been a quality operation with some consistent standards they would have shown WG up a long time ago.
I guess we will see WG's owners looking for an exit from the business in the next few years - the owners are in their early to mid 60s and one might argue they have demonstrated that a locally based quality operation can deliver some decent services for their customers.
I suspect Go-Ahead might be a logical next purchaser for the business, tacking on nicely to its Plymouth Citybus operation, though the differences between those operations are obviously huge.
"look at the bus graveyard that is Weymouth"
Most of the Dorset fleet is low floor except a few deckers used mainly on schools and a few fill in journeys. The Volvo and Scania deckers purchased in recent years and the 2005 plate Volvo singles passed you by then?
" and also its pretty sad when the new bus being celebrated in Plymouth is a P-Reg decker!!!!!"
Plymouth is almost entirely low floor, a P reg decker has got to be one of the oldest vehicles in the fleet now.
Perhaps you're the sad one making allegations that clearly aren't true?
Its funny that if this was Stagecoach and not First there would have been numerous Souter bashing posts and that would have been ok apparently but for some reason we can't criticise First who have a proven (and self acknowledged) poor record of bus operations UK wide. They even screw up their rebrand. There are very few small operators left in the country and even fewer that are of the high standard of WG so yes we'll defend them and if you lived in Cornwall and had witnessed Cornwall being held to ransom by First a few years back you too would still be pretty angry as they have done nothing since then to try to win back trust. I'd also be curious to know how many tenders First have won nationwide when the criteria was based on cost and quality as even they acknowledge they are an inferior brand and are trying to fix it. That's not to say they can't change as they managed to turn around fGW although not until they had run it into the ground. Guess we'll have to wait and see and hope we aren't proved right.
I spent a holiday in Weymouth last year, and didn't feel that the buses I travelled on resembled a graveyard. I must admit to wondering just how SWCs managed to keep their fleet of buses on the road, and the general state of those wouldn't encourage me to leave my car at home. Yet SWC passed Dorset's much vaunted quality test :S
I think SEV777 might have been right about the old First - but less so about new First.
Had this been Stagecoach there would have been undoubtedly a few Souter bashing posts but I'm sure there would have been a fair few defending that company too!
As for quality operations, the picture illustrating the omnibuses post is of two dirty old Mercs, hardly an image the industry should be aspiring to for a "quality" operator.
well it would seem stagecoach have either registered a route to go against first in bude or got a route from first in bude
PH1020951/179 - STAGECOACH DEVON LTD, BELGRAVE ROAD, EXETER, EX1 2LB
Registration Accepted
Starting Point: Stratton
Finish Point: Poughill
Via:
Service Number: 128
Service Type: Normal Stopping
Effective Date: 02-APR-2012
Other Details: Mondays to Saturdays, up to 11 journeys in each direction
when you look at WG's operateing area and the busses used on these services WG will surely be able to lower floor more routes now in the North of Cornwall and get rid off steppers with out spending a lot off money? so in fact loseing these routes could result in a better quality busses for other parts off WG's network which could increase ridership in these areas and improve profit on other routes.
also as commented else where first already have bases in the areas and run other routes, id expect the camborne routes run in dead from the main depot which is a long dead run. then you have the costs id expect for renting land for outstations at helston and in the penzance area it may have been better to lose routes to absorb losses that could be made from these costs?
Following on from other posts about problems at WG recently, this seems to explain why the Penzance operation has suffered from a quality downturn over the past year. The services are reliable and provide excellent network connecting remote villages, but the buses are filthy inside and out, non-uniformed and/or scruffy drivers and often no destination displays.
Losing 20 buses worth of work will enable WG to get shot of their oldest Varios and enable to the company to take stock and spend a bit of time getting to grips with quality again as there won't be any tenders to worry about for two years.
In the longer term my money's on them selling to Stagecoach.
Expect Stagecoach to have services in Penzance within five years. Invasion via north Devon initially, then moving into cornwall route by rout. That's the Master Plan. Used to be Rapsons in Thurso, now it's Stagecoach. Soon it will be Lands End too. I know!
Stagecoach already have one bus based at Bude to operate service 85.This registration for 128 mirrors the First route and number.
The Minister Is On The Wrong Bus
Unrest in Wales. This must be one of the most strongly worded letters by an ND of a bus company and aimed at the Welsh Transport Minister. It pulls no punches.
http://waleshome.org/2012/02/the-minister-is-on-the-wrong-bus/
The Minister Is On The Wrong Bus
A no punches pulled leter by a Bus Company MD to the Transport Minister
http://waleshome.org/2012/02/the-minister-is-on-the-wrong-bus/
I can see that some people disagree with my opinion. I would ask them to look at the publicly available audited accounts of FDC particularly where it says "The parent company has provided the directors of the company with a letter confirming that it will make available such funds as may be required to enable the company to meet its obligations for at least twelve months from signing the financial statements. The directors have made enquiries and understand that the parent company has adequate resources to be able to provide this financial support." and then tell me how much longer First is going to be prepared to donate £2.5 million a year to the people of Devon and Cornwall. I can't believe that First haven't already made every possible economy so their choices are to either shut FDC down or to eliminate the competition. And while I have never tendered for a bus service I have been doing tenders in industry for 25 years so I do have a little idea of what goes on.
SEV 777, there might be a bigger "tender" in First's sights - namely the Great Western Rail franchise. The FDC situation could all be part of that plan as well.
As a LA officer who regularly tenders local bus and school work, trying to read the market to obtain the best value for our council tax payers is always difficult. A local operator (albeit a small independent, not a national group) recently handed work back as it didn't cover his costs (he said). As the contract was only a few months old it was retendered on a like for like basis as nothing on the demand side had changed. The operator who handed it back saying the income was too low actually bid a lower price second time round - and was still undercut by several others!
Armchair experts: explain that one!
In the current climate, all councils are under pressure to make significant cuts where possible and therefore I would suggest that CC like many others have gone for the lowest cost.
A large client of mine runs care homes for the disabled. The council have told them to cut fees but up to 15% and provide a 'bread & butter service'. Forget the extra's that improve quality and welfare. This sentiment extends to most council funded projects at present.
What hasn't been mentioned here is that First is a listed company with shareholders to please. Why would they take on routes deliberately to make a loss and incur the wrath of shareholders?
The going concern note referred to by @sev777 whilst interesting is nothing to read to much into. Any loss making company has to explain why they think they can continue to trade. All the detail in FDC's accounts is pretty much standard text to justify why they can continue to trade.
I totally agree with everything Will says (@08.06). Sums up the position perfectly.
All the new timetables are now available to view on the Traveline website - select journey planner, plan a journey post-1st April, then you can select the relevant timetable through the individual journey option.
And in answer to the question in the original post, CC don't "do" route numbers, thus FDC have dropped the 5xx prefix.
@viewfromthesouth 17/02
Big groups may not do large scale loss leaders but if you look at the bids put in by First Glasgow for West Dumbartonshire school contracts last year you may see they are prepared to undertake some loss leading on a small scale. In this instance their bids were in the region of 15% to 20% lower on an annual basis than the current annual costs and this is for the next 5 years and presented the authority with considerable saving. It is no coincidence that the primary operator to have lost their contracts as a result has been busy competing against First over one of their protected routes to/from Glasgow. The other outcome has been the re-introduction to regular step entrance buses on local services as a way of utilising the drafted in school fleet during the day.
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