A modest family reunion for a landmark birthday saw six of us over three generations wanting to get to the city centre during the following morning. We were staying at my son’s and the distance was precisely 1.4 miles. Someone suggested the bus. I knew it would be a mistake for I could guarantee the total fare would be high. But it would save two cars and it was mid-morning, so the car parks would be filling up…
Off we walked to the bus stop around the corner. Being a Saturday, buses were marginally less frequent but we didn’t have long to wait. Two of the party had free travel passes and the other four were farepaying adults. We boarded and found that the full adult fare out and back would total £3.60 each. Everyone bar me was taken aback and that included one of the free travellers. If you travel regularly for free you seem to lose touch with the reality of rising fares.
Everyone looked at me, as if I could do something. I muttered to the driver about the possibility of a group ticket but alas! none was available. In truth, I didn’t expect one. After a few seconds’ thought, the party split up. The two with free travel passes went to the city centre by bus but the other four went back for one of the cars.
Net result: two passholders at least contributed *something* to the operator. That “something” depended upon the reimbursement formula locally but it wouldn’t be the equivalent of four separate single fares.
As for the rest of us, we contributed precisely nothing. £14.40 was a step too far. Car parking was £7.50 and fuel used was about 33p. Yes, there are contributions towards other motoring costs but the trip was highly marginal in nature. But even at 50p per mile running costs, this equates to £1.40. The maximum this cost four people for a return by car was, including parking, £8.90. The saving made by *not* using the bus, £5.50, funded a sandwich & drink for one of us. Or it’s over ¾ of a gallon of diesel.
The downside of using the car was finding a car parking space which, by mid-morning on a Saturday, wasn’t straightforward. The car park was nevertheless near the bus terminus, so the car was really no less inconvenient. The other problem was on the return, when the two free travellers over ran their bus stop through lack of local knowledge and had to walk a little further back. Not the end of the world, though.
I’m not going to mention the operator by name because this problem affects virtually all bus services, no matter their hue. Instead, I’d venture to suggest that what we need is something really Transforming. Family day tickets are often available but there’s usually nothing for groups of *adults*. And where there is, it’s for the entire network so it would’ve been over-priced for this particular journey.
Paying £14.40 isn’t an option, unless you really have no choice. We didn’t pay it then and we won’t in the future. Is this why we never seem to see small groups of farepayers on the bus, these days? I know some enlightened operators offer group travel but might this become more widespread? What better tool to remove a significant barrier to travel.
Monday, 31 October 2011
Robbery?
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42 comments:
And the answer to this is to make the bus cheaper, not make the car option more expensive as some would have us believe.
trent barton do offer a day ticket vaild for up to £5 people for £12.
1.4 miles? Walking distance! :-)
It is a differnt perception for those without cars. Car ownership is at least £7 per day and for many urban people heavy taxi use is cheaper than car ownership. Car ownership brings a much higher risk of death and serious injury, illness due to a sedentary lifestile. Clashes with the police, bad drivers and insurnace companies and others is more likely with car ownership. Cars a great if you are very affluent and you are a good driver and enjoy driving. For many a bus is a better option and the cost seems reasonable. The bus fare is a small part of the cost of a social event, Starbucks or Wetherspoons do not give you much for for the price of a bus fare. As someone else said, 1.4 miles, buses are always second best to walking if there is time!
I'd rather see individual fares reduced, personally.
If it's cheaper to go by car, there is little environmental harm in a full car (or taxi) doing the journey. So it's not that custom we should be prioritising, I guess.
The problemis the over generous concessionary pass system besides themsoaking up most of the local councils budgets they also drive up fares so you end up with fare paying passangers saying enough is enough its quicker & cheaper by car.
The concessionary pass system needs changinging. Make it say £50 a year for pass with thos onincome support say paying £10.
The passes could also say alowlimit travel on local train services off peakat say half fare
"Car ownership brings a much higher risk of death and serious injury, illness due to a sedentary lifestile. Clashes with the police, bad drivers and insurnace companies and others is more likely with car ownership."
I have only ever been seriously injured once, and it was while cycling. So if I'd been driving, it'd not have happened.
I have never encountered the police while driving in any way whatsoever, that would be because I do not break the law while driving I guess. Insurance companies are a faff, but you only have to deal with them once a year unless you have an accident, in which case I've again not had issues.
Yes, there are bad drivers, but drive defensively and they will not be a problem.
And a bus is, of course, susceptible to such things as well. Sometimes the bad driver is, dare I suggest it, behind the wheel of the bus - particularly in London, where some (not "many" or "most", I emphasize - some) bus drivers are extremely and unnecessarily aggressive.
Neil
I think on a journey-for-journey basis, cars are often cheaper. But the long-term costs of buses compared to cars really work themselves out. I pay £50 a month on the bus, and there are few who travel regularly and spend less than that on running a car.
"I think on a journey-for-journey basis, cars are often cheaper. But the long-term costs of buses compared to cars really work themselves out. I pay £50 a month on the bus, and there are few who travel regularly and spend less than that on running a car."
Getting people to *give up their car* and go by bus is a complete non-starter except for a very small minority, almost all of whom will live in a big city. The bus industry needs to stop wasting its time on this and try to encourage car owners to take journeys by bus that they might otherwise drive, particularly alone, though.
Esqui said...
"I think on a journey-for-journey basis, cars are often cheaper. But the long-term costs of buses compared to cars really work themselves out."
This is no doubt correct, but as RW says, car owners have a different perception. You also have to remember that the car owner has already bought and paid for (in some form) the car, and therefore it is not unreasonable for them to compare the bus fare with the marginal cost of using the car, rather than the full costs.
Bus operators will probably always find it difficult to offer fares that compare favourably with the marginal costs of using a car, but in my experience that has been the case for a long time now. Even in the 1970s I can recall seeing clients of the local job centre that was opposite the bus company office where I was working using taxis in groups of three or four. Even then the fares were perceived as being high. Selective reductions in off-peak fares may be a possibility.
As another commenter has said, making the car option more expensive is politically a non-starter, but providing facilities for the bus to be more attractive is another matter. Such facilities may make the bus seem better value.
Casual custom is just that...casual and occasional. Bus companies need to value their core clientele more than passing trade.
I read the facebook page of a local big five subsiduary,and this provides a worrying barometer of the way some passengers view the company..and how the company handle this is not good.
Car ownership is a choice for many,and whilst costly,is flexible and covenient. For teenagers,who are faced with high car insurance premiums and running costs, bus travel should have plenty of appeal.Target them with gusto.
The railways offer GroupSave where 3 or 4 adults travel for the price of 2 plus up to 4 children travel for £1 each. Very good value for money. Plus you are not restricted to designated trains.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/promotions/pr354fdc0a0400020101fea1769fbf60/details.html
For many cars are something they do not wish to live without. You can't get everywhere on public transport, and except in very urban areas they are not the best option all of the time.
You may not be able to get to work on public transport, but you may wish to use it for a shopping trip on a Saturday. If you already have a car, and are faced with high bus fares, you are not going to use the bus! Not only is the car cheaper in many cases, you don't have to wait for it in the rain, its quicker and theres plenty of room for your shopping. Offer better discounts for groups and some may use the bus, but others never will.
"Offer better discounts for groups and some may use the bus, but others never will."
Indeed - some of that's perception, but some of it is that the bus network is genuinely hard to understand if you don't use it often.
I expect if all buses were free to everyone, Mondeo Man would still avoid them.
Neil
In West Yorkshire First offer a 'Family' ticket, but it covers any five people, any mix of adults or children.
In West Yorkshire First offer a 'Family' ticket, but it covers any five people, any mix of adults or children.
Should have added - for £7.
Individual adult bus fares - singles, returns, day rovers, weekly and monthly variants - are all more expensive today than they would have otherwise been had the free bus pass scheme not been administered in the way that it is.
The average adult fare on a rolling monthly basis for all ticket classes mentioned above is calculated using data provided by the operator. To ensure a 'good start' to your figures, you set your base fares high. This will assist the average fare calculated each month be higher than it would otherwise be.
How many operators do readers of this esteemed blog know who offer a minimum fare of £1.50. It's daylight robbery. The operator won't care if few people purchase tickets for that price as it acts as the foundation block of all other fares. Start the minimum fare at 80p and other, longer distance fares would be proportionately cheaper to naturally follow on from this amount.
My argument is that group travel for purely adults would not be necessary if shorter distance fares were cheaper. They're not though, purely due to the free bus pass scheme and its method of reimbursement.
In the Lancashire area, Transdev offer a 2 for £10 return ticket to and from Manchester and now 2 for £8 return on new services to Bury.
http://lancashirebus.co.uk/fares.jsp?fareTypeID=47
Rossendalebus now have a "Tango" return ticket available for two people on all services giving a modest reduction of at least 10% off the cost of buying single tickets, with a maximum price of £8.
http://www.rossendalebus.co.uk/page.php?id=57
At least this is a start, we now need them to introduce 2 person (or more) day tickets not just the traditional family style group tickets.
I think the main reason many operators don't offer group tickets is the worry of losing revenue by existing customers buying a group ticket instead of individual tickets. This seems to outweigh any possible increase in revenue generated by a group ticket. Reading Buses do a group ticket - any 4 people for £5 at weekends and school holidays only -maybe this is the answer as it stops commuters saving through the group ticket but helps to generate custom at weekends.
If you could turn cynicism into electricity, we wouldn't need power stations! One or two contributors (Rendu; anon @ 11:11) have a very strange view of how the industry makes pricing decisions, with a particular liking for solutions that involve the tail wagging the dog.
I can only speak for my own operation, but the same happens to be true of all others I have encountered in my career.
Concessionary revenue is an important part of our overall income, but by no means the largest part. In my own case, revenue from farepayers far exceeds income derived from passholders.
To suggest therefore that I would artificially inflate my fares in order to elevate my concessionary revenue would be commercial suicide, as I would be deliberately disfavouring my biggest source of revenue, in the hope of getting something from a smaller one.
If I really wanted, I could double my concessionary revenue next month, but in doing so there would be two certain consequences... 1) The loss of demand from farepayers as I doubled the fares would cause me far more damage both now and for a long time to come and (2) the local authority would pretty quickly wake up and smell the fish, so this time next year I'd have a lot less farepayers and a much worse concessionary scheme! Everybody loses!
When I make pricing decisions, of course I have regard for the likely impact on my concessionary revenue, but to paint it the other way round and suggest I would use the concessionary scheme as the basis of my pricing strategy is just plain nuts!
On the actual subject, I am pleased to say that in every company I have worked since 1999 I have converted family tickets into group tickets (up to five people any age) because I just don't understand why you wouldn't! (It was actually Ray Stenning who persuaded me of the merits of this, and he was dead right!)
We offer just such a ticket at Velvet and hardly ever sell any, but we will continue to offer it because I think it has a legitimate part to play in the overall pricing structure.
@Anon 08:05
And the answer to this is to make the bus cheaper, not make the car option more expensive as some would have us believe.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Our local council is looking at increasing car parking charges as a way to raise some revenue - the same pressures that are leading to cut backs in supported bus services. I'm sure they can't be alone in this.
@paul thereby driving the decline of their town centres. parking charges can be pushed up in big towns but there are a lot of small centres that have been strangled by charges.
Can you not double fares, then offer a free loyalty card that entitles the holder to 50% off single fares or similar?
The real problem is bus companies have largely priced themselves out of the market. Add into that the poor level of services and low standards.People are not going to pay first class level fares for third class standardsand there lies the major problem.
Bus companies passengers now largely consisist of concessionary pass holders & school children with fare paying passenger numbers steadilly declining
This is not a viable business model & something will have to give before long. At the momenent it is kept going by tinkering at the edges with services cuts & frequency reductions and increased fares. This though only delivers short termgains as in the end it drives customers away
Even dafter is inmany cases it is the peak services that are cut.
I would never ever use the car for local journeys. I find the bus far more attractive despite the price. I would not dare to leave my car in most urban car parks round here because the standard of driving and parking is so appalling that I would probably come back and find it scratched or dented, quite apart from the scrapes from carelessly opened doors, etc. When I will use the car is for long journeys to avoid the ludicrously priced and thoroughnly unpleasant experience of using the train. I find trains a way bigger hurdle to using public transport than buses.
"Can you not double fares, then offer a free loyalty card that entitles the holder to 50% off single fares or similar?"
And never attract a single new user? Yeah, great idea.
Neil
"@paul thereby driving the decline of their town centres. parking charges can be pushed up in big towns but there are a lot of small centres that have been strangled by charges."
Indeed. Parking charges were never going to cause a move to public transport. They were going to cause the growth of out of town shopping centres.
And parking charges at out of town shopping centres now would kill those in favour of the Internet.
People *do not like* paying to park - and it isn't just the usually quite small charge, it's the inconvenience of having to know how long you'll be and carry change. Phone parking payment makes up for that to some extent, but it has a long way to go.
Attracting people to the bus has to be via the carrot, not the stick, and the carrot is avoidance of traffic congestion where bus lanes and infrastructure are properly set up (seldom in the UK - a look at Germany and the Netherlands shows the way to do it).
It is obvious that the use of the stick has contributed massively to the death of many town centres.
Neil
Bus travel for shopping is not really a serious option for most people. You need the car to carry your shopping.
The best opportunities for bus companies is with commuters but this is a market they pretty much ignore so for most the bus is not an option as the services are so pathetic with most industrial, Business parks & retail parks have just a couple of journeys a day
Bus companies should also be providing different route patterns for different times of day and week.
Unless bus companies change they don’t have much of a future. The current system relies on ever increasing public subsidies to prop up a very basis public transport system. It is not an approach that can continue for much longer
"And never attract a single new user? Yeah, great idea."
There are companies that offer 25% off single fares with a loyalty card - whether you travel every day or once a year. Does this mean that the average "cash" single fare is inflated to compensate? Would having higher single fares also increase the amount the company recieves for each pass holder?
"Bus companies should also be providing different route patterns for different times of day and week."
Er, wha? Do you really want to completely confuse everyone?
What we need to do is stop thinking that a bus route is an item on its own, and stop discouraging connections, starting instead to co-ordinate them properly, both with other buses and with trains.
Stopping the "two buses, that means you pay twice" nonsense with single fares would be a start. Yes, I know it's for revenue protection reasons, but sometimes passenger convenience should win out. That particular piece of stupidity even exists in London, where it has no reason to.
"Bus travel for shopping is not really a serious option for most people. You need the car to carry your shopping."
It depends what you mean by shopping. For supermarket shopping, you're right, same for large electrical goods. But for clothes shopping, which is still predominantly the preserve of the High Street, few people are going to end up buying more in one trip than they can comfortably carry.
*That* kind of shopper is a massive market for the bus.
As for commuters, yes, those form a nice core - but are hard to serve if the destination isn't in the centre. Even with connections as I propose, the journey time will still be way longer than by car. And those commuting by train won't be interested without coordinated connections - i.e. the bus waiting for the train and vice versa.
Do we perhaps need more small-bus dedicated services, e.g. rail links, works buses and the likes?
Neil
"Bus travel for shopping is not really a serious option for most people. You need the car to carry your shopping"
If this was true my wife and I would have died of starvation!
We have supermarkets which are near enough to walk to (1.5 mile, 2m and 6m). Another 6 within easy bus ride. We can easily carry our shopping back on the bus. When we had a voracious teenage son at home he helped us carry and sometimes we got a taxi. It would be easier with a car but the physical effort keeps us fit and stops our weight going out of control. This is a major health benefit, being healthy is much more conveneient than a car ever could be. If I lived in the country I would want a car, but most folks live in urban areas. Some of these folks need a car too, but if you can get by without one you are much better off. Our hobby is travel, mostly on foot but we can get all over the UK without a car. It would be nice to have a chauffer for a few days a year, but we mostly get that from our rambling club coach. I retired at 53, if I had had a car I would still be workong at 65. No contest!
Stagecoach Devon used to offer a facility whereby someone with a season ticket could take up to 4 people with them for 50p a journey after 1900 Mon - Fris and all day at weekends. This gave the opportunity for car-owning friends to sample travel by bus. With a good service, this acted as a great marketing tool for the company.
Quote As for commuters, yes, those form a nice core - but are hard to serve if the destination isn't in the centre"
This is the fundermental problem. Bus companies continue the practice of running buses to what would have been the old market ton but the majority of journeys are no longer to the local centre.
Industrial, Retail. & Business Parks are not in the town centre.
Bus usage is declaining because they ignore the market needs
"Bus usage is declaining because they ignore the market needs"
The market needs are genuinely hard to serve...
Anonymous said...
"Industrial, Retail. & Business Parks are not in the town centre.
Bus usage is declaining because they ignore the market needs"
It is not really very helpful to blame the bus operators for that. The blame lies fairly and squarely with the politicians who have allowed the development of so much decentralised employment and retailing that public transport is often unsustainable.
There has long been a perception amongst the public that if operators put on a particular service that people will use it. Whilst this may sometimes be the case unfortunately all too often it isn't. I won't be the only person who was persuaded to put something on - 'I have lots of people who will regularly use it' - only to find the driver carried fresh air almost every trip!
There is nothing actually stopping operators trying a service. If as one correspondent regularly suggests there is a demand - why is no one providing it. If enough people were making the case and involving employers etc surely someone would try. I suggest the person concerned actively tries to bring such a group together instead of just knocking the industry.
A few people have rightly commented that for people who already have a car, it is the marginal cost of the car journey that would be used for the comparison.
Any sensible pro-public transport government would abolish the crazy bureaucracy that is Vehicle Excise Duty without a second thought, and make a revenue-neutral increase in fuel duty. I just can't see the bl**dy point of it, especially as it is now tiered roughly according the ability of the vehicle in question to guzzle gas.
Every little helps.
"Any sensible pro-public transport government would abolish the crazy bureaucracy that is Vehicle Excise Duty without a second thought, and make a revenue-neutral increase in fuel duty. I just can't see the bl**dy point of it, especially as it is now tiered roughly according the ability of the vehicle in question to guzzle gas."
One purpose used to be checking insurance - but as this is now on a database there is no need. Insurance companies could issue an insurance disc as a substitute if police want to be able to do "in person" checks.
National Express West Midlands used to offer a day ticket for 5 people for £7.80 (three years ago this was £5), but it was withdrawn as too many people would just flash any ticket and 5 of them would walk on. There is still a family daysaver for up to 2 adults and 4 children, however. For a daysaver ticket though (£3.60) across the whole of the West Midlands is quite good in comparison to other areas, where you'd be paying over £4 for a much smaller area with a less frequent service.
It costs me £3.30 for a child fare just to get to school and back, which is only a few miles. Although Wilts and Dorset do at least do a day ticket for any five people (allowing unlimited travel that day) for only £18. Which is only £3.60 per person, and you can go anywhere on the W&D and the Bluestar network for that.
Prices have also gone up by stupid amounts. Two years ago I was paying 70p for a single back from school, I'm now paying £2.20 for the same ride on the same broken bus. Thats over 3x the price, in only two years!
Anon at 19:49 said:
"National Express West Midlands used to offer a day ticket for 5 people for £7.80 (three years ago this was £5), but it was withdrawn as too many people would just flash any ticket and 5 of them would walk on."
Couldn't that be easily solved by issuing each person with a ticket? Okay five bits of paper instead of one but easier for the driver when people board.
"Couldn't that be easily solved by issuing each person with a ticket? Okay five bits of paper instead of one but easier for the driver when people board."
The railway does it that way for GroupSave, but the trouble is that groups would just split up as bus ticket inspection can never have time taken over it in the way it can on the railway.
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