Real time passenger information’s been with us for about a decade now, though it’s within the last six years that it’s taken off. Its deployment is nevertheless often patchy and confined to town centre or main locations. Suburbs rarely get a look in. Delivery is through a mixture of real time and scheduled departure times. And, it has to be said, the whole set up’s often somewhat fragile.
Over the summer, Arriva Malta turned off its telematics as it was only adding confusion to the already chaotic situation there. This was through a combination of operational and system problems that proved too much.
A little nearer home, look no further than in parts of Derbyshire where the council some years ago purchased a system that still may never be used, because the main operator, Trent Barton feels that it’s unreliable.
This was for introduction on Trans Peak services. Yet, Trent Barton has experienced some issues in other areas that are already and currently subject to RTPI.
Blaming one side or the other probably isn’t helpful because the technology, then and probably now, isn’t as robust as anyone would like and there are many linkages in the system that could potentially be broken. There’s the software, on-bus kit and remote base stations. Then there’s the stop side infrastructure that is subject to all weathers and, as such, has a limited lifespan in any case. Plus, it’s conceivable that some suppliers could be making impossible promises. Conclusion: an unreliable system is worse than none at all. It’s a matter of confidence, something that Trent Barton seems not to have.
It’s one thing getting RTPI to work well in a dense urban area or a town centre location. Yet, I’ve noticed problems, inconsistencies and glitches even in Westminster, an area of London that couldn’t be more central, urban and more visible to the world.
But what of suburban, inter-urban or more rural areas, such as Trans Peak? This is the challenge because frequencies are lower and the geography sometimes compromising. On the one hand, arguably, if you have 24 direct buses an hour between Poole & Bournemouth (as will be the case later this month, with Yellow Buses’ changes), a real time display at Gervis Place or en route at Westbourne is somewhat superfluous. Translate that to a rural area where frequencies are considerably lower and RTPI is of real benefit. But rolling out stopside delivery becomes expensive. Technical issues are magnified, assuming that there are no black spots or shadows.
It would be nice to think that there were immediate solutions to these problems. In spite of some optimism, nothing totally promising seemed to present itself at Bus & Coach Live.Could the solution to these problems be the smartphone? There are an increasing number of apps available that can pinpoint exactly the user’s location and can therefore direct the customer to a nearby bus stop. Yellow Buses’ new app does just that. It then predicts the next five buses due at that stop (there’s also a journey planning function). That app doesn’t deliver real time but it’s already doing more than RTPI because it
- Has universal coverage
- Gives more information in one bite than a RTPI display
- Is trusted, simply because it’s an app, and
- Provides the same information as the minimum RTPI default position (scheduled time).
London goes one better. Its revised Countdown system, currently under test, will deliver real time information to a mobile phone via text or the mobile internet (not an app). The mobile internet is slower but it can deliver RTPI without the stopside display. Countdown may be improving RTPI at 2,500 key London bus stops but the mobile internet releases this to all the others.
This is dependent upon your having a smartphone. Half of all mobile phone users already have one. The other half, who cannot get apps, will be able to get text messaging as a minimum and, I bet, mobile internet, too.
But RTPI on the mobile internet still relies on operator engagement, software systems and radio links. But they do away with expensive stopside electronics that outdoors have a limited lifespan. We may still be some way off RTPI being perfect and it may be that using the mobile internet to receive Twitter and Facebook feeds—with the ability to update in real time—on the one hand and apps on the other may be a reasonable intermediate approach. Until more emerging technologies come along.
46 comments:
Www.nextbuses.mobi can give scheduled information for any bus stop in Great Britain, provided you can get a mobile signal. And if the buses are equipped, it doesn't take a lot more for it to give real time info either (try almost any stop in West or South Yorkshire).
Unsurprisingly, this wasn't really promoted at Bus & Coach Live, because there's not much money in it for the equipment manufacturers.
Indeed, the key part now is having a GPRS-enabled ticket machine - basically it only needs a SIM card, just like a mobile phone. Curiously, one major group which has all its thousands of buses with suitable ETMs, won't fit SIMs and release the data to the public authorities, to drive both RTI and bus priority.
And I do wonder whether Trent's non-ITSO German-made ticket machines may also be a sticking point in making RTI work in UK conditions.
Edinburgh City Council's Bustracker provides realtime info by app to smartphones (for Lothian Buses). They have recently put QR codes on the bus stops so you just have to scan to get the information.
When it started the information was a bit iffy, but now it is usually reliable, though not perfect. And you can get timetable info from a Traveline app. Such technology really transforms the whole bus experience.
THese systems though are still very erratic and unreliable and are frequently showing inccomplete and inaccurate information. It is pretty common to see buses that are predicted to be a few minutes away just disappear from the system
To say thatbus stop equipment has a short life is not correct. Proper equipment shoul have at least a 10 year life.
Much of the probplem is lack of expertise in the bus companies and very and no desire to invest in reliable equipment instead they buy the cheapest which in a non benign environment will not last long.
I agree with anon 0819: "THese systems though are still very erratic and unreliable and are frequently showing inccomplete and inaccurate information"
There are numerous electronic systems, apps etc. etc. but until the core information is prepared with due diligence for distribution to these systems, they are, at the very least, misleading.
If a passenger information display is missing just one scheduled journey in a two-hourly frequency, then it is simply not 'fit for purpose'. As for 'real time', unless every vehicle on the route is equipped with the relevant equipment, it is better not to have a display.
Much money is invested in these systems but none whatsoever is given to old fashioned people checking the data.
When an RTPI system was initially setup in Southampton (rather more than ten years ago now, I think!), an acquaintance of mine pointed out that, if he was intending to make a short journey by bus, and the display indicated that the bus was 10 minutes late, he would probably walk. Result: one lost passenger and revenue for the bus operator. Without the RTPI he would not have known how late the bus was, and would simply have waited.
My acquaintance also pointed out that (at that time) the cost of developing the RTPI system would have paid for about 80 new buses. So the money could either be spent in a way that helped improve the reliability of the bus service, or on something that simply told the passengers how unreliable it was. Cynical? Well, yes, but perhaps worth a thought, nonetheless!
You say "...Translate that to a rural area where frequencies are considerably lower and RTPI is of real benefit"
I am not convinced. In an urban area with multiple frequent services, then if I know that service A is delayed, I may choose service B. Or I might go and buy a newspaper in a nearby shop. Of drop into a cafe.
But what if I am at a rural stop served by only one viable service? If you are at Haddon Hall on the Transpeak route (which has one of the non-working RTPI stops) then even if it worked and told you that the TP was 40 minutes late, what are you going to do with the information? There are no shops. Nowhere to shelter. And if you are going more than a few miles, no chance that any other bus will offer a better arrival-at-destination time than waiting for the TP.
The scandal of the Derbyshire signs (which my FOI request eventually identified as costing £324k without a single sign ever showing any information) is that even if it had worked, the information would have been useless. The signs only display two digits, which is idiotic when service intervals are sometimes 120 minutes. And when there is a disruption, the display can't say "TP at 1800 is canclled" or "For Nottingham, take the 6.1 at 1823 and change at Derby" (which is the sort of information that a rural passenger needs if they happen not to be carrying a timetable book with them).
"An interesting tie-up between ERG electronic ticket machines and ACIS RTPI under Vix"
Is that goobledegook available with an English translation for us non-professionals?
I find quite a difference between information available to bus users and train users. It appears to me that the rail industry is more switched on with this.
Take the national rail website. There's real-time information about every single train (unless anyone knows different), and though no system is 100% reliable, it lets the passenger know if they are going to face delays. If there are problems in a certain area, or on certain lines, from my experience, such information is provided very quickly. There is also fare information so I know any costs in advance. Tickets can also be bought from any operator for any journey ie it's possible to purchase a journey through First ScotRail for an Arriva Trains Wales service.
I would love to see the bus industry adopt something similar, instead of the fragmented set up there is at the moment.
Real-time information about every route operated. I'm not sure display boards are necessary at every stop. There are loads of minor rail stations without them, some people simply check information on their phones.
Fare information being widely available. Some train companies charge different prices for the same journeys but they display their prices. Would it be stretching the imagination to have a one-stop website for booking and paying for coach travel? As an example, most people I know will check National Express and Megabus prices on their separate websites and book the cheapest. Why not pool everything together on one website?
Again from my experience, bus operators are very good in informing their passengers of potential problems, but are either slow, or don't even bother advising of issues if they happen unexpectedly.
The usual comment, about the usual operator - how is it that Brighton & Hove can have such an accurate and reliable system ?
"But what if I am at a rural stop served by only one viable service? If you are at Haddon Hall on the Transpeak route (which has one of the non-working RTPI stops) then even if it worked and told you that the TP was 40 minutes late, what are you going to do with the information?"
Decide to wait rather than give up and go home? I personally would be unlikely to wait for an infrequent bus for more than 10 or so minutes past the scheduled time before going to get my car, or a lift off someone, or a taxi, as you just don't know it's going to show up. Being told it's 40 minutes late at least reassures that it's coming.
But there's no need for "real" RTPI to do that. I'm rapidly finding that Twitter is an extremely effective means of providing human (and thus trusted) semi-RTPI. Thus in the case of that TP, we could have:-
@trentbarton: "TransPeak departure from Notts @ 10:00 being delayed at Buxton as broken down, no ETA yet"
...tells me to give up and go home, but...
@trentbarton: "TransPeak departure from Notts @ 10:00 running 40 mins late due to traffic on A6, no further delay expected"
...tells me to wait for it.
The railway of late have taken, on the third generation electronic PIS, to adding notes with reasons for delays. This is very useful - arguably more useful than a precise predicted time of arrival that never turns out accurate either.
And the great thing about Twitter is that it's free. (Yes, there's no business model, but I suspect advertising will be the way it goes). And all it takes is someone in Control to type stuff into it. And for non-techies, you just put the feed on your home page, or maybe even some sort of feed screen in the window of your office at the bus station. Even a one-man-band operator can use it, and could start using it tomorrow with the smartphone he's already got.
So come on, bus operators, where are you? London Midland (@londonmidland) seems to be leading the way on the railway, with Chiltern Railways following closely behind. Where's the disadvantage?
RTPI systems are only as good as the data within them - the system in Warrington (launched August 2003) had been displaying old timetables for several months following on from a timetable change in June. Is it co-incidence that the transport budget at the council was decimated last year, with several members of staff made redundant? Don't know, but it won't have done anything for passengers' confidence in the system, which in fairness has been pretty reliable over the years.
One problem with RTI in the bus industry is that some operators are reluctant participants (they can't see a business case in terms of “more bums on seats”), whilst the systems are run by political outfits of one sort or another that tend to gloss over the commercial and technical issues and want to have something to boast about. My own view is that both are wrong. If operators want to be up to date and appeal to young people who are the customers of the future, then they need to embrace the technology and make it work. People see RTI on the trains so they assume it works, even though a system that works for rail would not do for buses. Politicians need to recognise that incorrect information is far worse than no information at all and, in particular, the tendency to present timetable information when the real time information is unavailable, can bring the whole system into disrepute. To be fair, officers usually understand this, but the politicians are often funding the systems, so want some kudos at the ballot box. However, if the bus doesn't turn up at the time the signs say, the operator, rather than the politician gets the flack and reputational damage for that.
In the case of Trent Barton, the Transpeak service struggles to be commercial, as has been discussed on this blog before, so the additional cost of RTI would make this worse. Also, in a rural and hilly area, the signal probably wouldn't be reliable and, as John Geddes posted, at somewhere like Haddon Hall, the information wouldn't be much use anyway. Even in an urban area like Ilkeston, I've casually noticed on occasional visits that the sign at Wharncliffe Road, supposed to provide RTI for the my15 service, often shows just a dot. Trent Barton have also had the experience of Leicester turning off the Startrak system in their area with only a few days notice.
On their Trent Barton Live Facebook page, they have said they are trying to develop a system which they control themselves, and doubtless this will be ideal for them and, hopefully, their customers.
On a related topic, what about on-board next-stop announcements (audio and visual). These are mandatory on the railways even though every station name is clearly displayed so you would have a job to miss your stop. On buses where you often must request your desire to alight in good time, some sort of announcement would transform the whole bus experience. Some operators already have it - TfL contractors, Thamesdown in Swindon, Nottingham City Transport. I noted the glaring omission of this from the Cambridgeshire Guided Busway, where passengers will be travelling in the dark across the featureless fens and expected to be able to work out when to press the stop button if requiring an intermediate stop!
"On a related topic, what about on-board next-stop announcements (audio and visual)."
An excellent idea, been done (manually) in mainland Europe for years. Should be mandatory, IMO.
All the emphasis seems to be on RTI that estimates in minutes the time until the bus arrives. Even if all the data transmission/collection is functioning correctly, this is still an inherrently inaccurate system as a late bus may make up time, or (very likely) become even later as a result of either still being stuck in the congestion that caused it to be late in the first place, or being bogged down by ever-higher passenger volumes due to the bunching effect.
I currently work in the control office of a large taxi firm. We use a very accurate and reliable GPS system, which plots all the taxis on a map, colour-coded as to their status, and updated every few seconds. When a passenger phones up about a late taxi, the first thing we do is tell the customer exactly where their taxi is and what speed and direction it is travelling. If the customer does not know the area or we have any other relevant information about traffic disruptions then we may give an estimate of ETA. But 90% of the time this is not necessary - the passenger is grateful for the very precise nature of the initial information and are able to draw their own conclusions.
So my question is, why can't bus operators develop such a tracking system, based on something simple like google maps, that passengers can access themselves either online before leaving home or out and about on their smartphones?
Rail systems good, says one of the anonymi above. Really? OK until something goes wrong,then complete chaos. See this:-
http://publictransportexperience.blogspot.com/2011/06/hairy-fair-y-berks-larks-4.html
Probably because there are fewer stations than there are bus stops, because rail runs with higher staffing levels than bus, sometimes a human intervenes and removes the nonsense. This never happens with bus RTPI, though admittedly it doesn't *always* happen with rail.
With rail, you also have an announcer who can say "ignore that, it's rubbish". Not so with bus.
@ffb
I've never had a problem with those at SWT stations. They're brilliant.
Going back to RC169 at 0844, as has been posted the flip side of the coin is that on journeys longer than a ten minute walk (most journeys), the RTI encourages people to stay and catch the bus.
As for making services in Southampton reliable, it would take some changing of those at Southampton City Council for that to happen!!
Brighton & Hove's RPTI system works because it is a) German/Swiss and b) Very Expensive.
Derbyshire are not alone in their woes. If you want to embarrass Transport for Greater Manchester, ask about their RPTI system. 'Quality corridors', eh?
GMPTE have been trying (and failing) to install RTPI on the 192 since about 1999.
Derby City piggy-backed their system on the Leicester Startrak, despite being told by users with knowledge of Leicester about the problems there. It's now been turned off and the bus stop screens are being removed. I don't know whether the Derbyshire county system was the same one, but I know TrentBarton had had enough of Startrak.
On my local route it was effective when it worked, with the "countdown" stopping when the bus was negotiating the busy stop and roundabout in the local shopping centre, and minutes being about 40 seconds long in the evening. But going 1, 0, 15, 14 arrive was common, as was a blank screen. So slightly better than nothing.
For the TransPeak, which is often significantly late, it would have been useful to know if a bus was 40 mins late or cancelled. You can't give up and go home if the one you are waiting for is to take you home!
And that information can be supplied to that level of granularity using Twitter, which costs precisely nothing to install.
Even on t'railway I find I use the NRE app on my phone more than the actual departure board at times. Means you can sit out of sight of a departure board while waiting if you wish (e.g. guessing the platform).
' "An interesting tie-up between ERG electronic ticket machines and ACIS RTPI under Vix"
'Is that goobledegook available with an English translation for us non-professionals?'
My understanding is that ERG (ticket machine manufacturing company) has merged with ACIS (real time information company) under the (Australian) company called Vix.
Anon @ 1542. TfL uses the same system as Brighton and Hove. I've used the mobile version and it's absolutely spot on.
The system in York was rolled out a few years ago but is still very hit and miss. There are electronic displays at many but not all city centre stops, but as you've noted, very few elsewhere. Some routes are generally tracked, others are not. The stops with displays and the routes that are tracked don't always overlap.
The destination data is not always helpful, particularly on some stops where there is only room for about 10 characters including the route number. There is no indication of how far down the line each bus is (ie 1st, 2nd, 3rd), so you might just catch it saying there's a bus on your route in 27 minutes, without seeing that there are also buses in 6, 13 and 21 minutes.
Although some routes are generally tracked, you rarely get more than about two-thirds of vehicles on a route being tracked at any one time, rendering the whole thing pretty useless.
As well as the signs at stops, the system is also available via the Acis website or text, and using these methods often gives different (and usually more accurate) information to the sign at the same stop.
Worse than that, while the information is often moderately accurate when services are running more or less to plan, it's utterly useless when things go pear-shaped - ie, exactly when you need it most. It has no way of showing cancelled buses, they just appear with a clock time until they are overdue and then disappear. Late-running buses are often not tracked so are shown with clock times and then fall off, with the bus then turning up 15 minutes later unannounced.
I don't know why it's so difficult to make it work, but the current shambles is rarely helpful.
I have been using the TfL test system since it was launched. I am a TfL employee but have nothing to do with Countdown so my views are as a user of the system.
I have used the text, mobile, web and an app to access the info. I even upgraded to a smartphone from a very basic mobile as a result of the info becoming available. I have found each of the different methods to be clear and easy to use with the right balance of info being provided. The app can also use the Smartphone's GPS to bring up the stops closest to your present location which is also a neat feature.
I have found the information to be pretty close to accurate - there are legitimate reasons why there may be a slight delay in a bus arriving relative to a previously provided time but that's tolerable.
The (android) app is privately developed and free and has worked pretty well. More and more functionality is being added over the weeks (for bus and other modes) and I've provided feedback to the developer. I have also given feedback to the Countdown team.
TfL also provide notices for a service if there is planned work that may affect the service or the availability of stops. Hopefully that facility will expand in time to cover real time disruption info - presently provided elsewhere on the TfL website.
I have shown some of the regular bus passengers I know the display on my phone and they're amazed to see the information. I am sure the system will be immensely popular once it is fully launched by TfL.
There are obviously mixed emotions if the info says "bus due" as you are coming out of the tube and you just miss it. However knowing that there is a gap in the service before you head out means you can adjust your plans. I agree with other posters that there is a risk of the passenger opting not to travel but that's probably less likely in London as there are often alternative services. The other thing that is helpful is being able to plan ahead for a connection and being able to check as you travel how long you have to make a connection and whether to amble or sprint!
TfL have obviously made a huge investment in systems to support I-Bus, on vehicle displays and Countdown. Not every operator or local authority can do that as there isn't the money for it. Nonetheless providing this sort of information, via whatever channel, does make the experience of using the bus much easier and reassuring.
I understand that Dorset CC are funding a scheme for the Weymouth/Dorchester corridor, to be working for the Olympics. ACIS are supplying/installing, apparently. York is also supplied by ACIS (according to the website). Given above comments - oh dear! I wonder how much this is costing to install, and how this fits with the cost saving exercise they have recently carried out with the new bus contracts across the county.
"I wonder how much this is costing to install, and how this fits with the cost saving exercise they have recently carried out with the new bus contracts across the county."
One's revenue funding and the other is capital. Two different pots. Let's hope there is enough revenue funding to maintain the ACIS system. It ain't cheap!
ACIS did the Surrey one when it started, and it seemed to work pretty well.
Going back to Anon 1313's comment, this ACIS system did have a website, it did have a map and it did allow you to watch buses move about the map so you knew where they were - it was brilliant.
Sadly, Surrey CC went with a new provider in 2008 I think it was. As well as the displays having to be turned off for weeks (which soon turned into months as it took longer than expected) for the system to be changed, the new system is rubbish and doesn't work at all well. The ACIS one was far better. The current one does work sometimes, but there are just too many problems (both with data input and just it working badly) for it to be considered reliable. The main town centre stop in Woking seems to think all buses are due (and shows them as such) about four minutes after the bus has actually left the stop...
The only good thing from the new provider is that timetabled departures don't just drop off as soon as the due time comes up. It leaves it about 2-3 minutes afterwards, so that in most cases it catches late running buses without actually having any real time info for them.
I believe ACIS do the West Sussex & Metrobus system, which works well from what I've seen.
Re the 15:42/15:43 comments, I had a mercifully brief involvement in the GMPTE scheme during its trial phase on the 192 route. Then, as now, this typically involved people with big ideas, but small brains, trying to come up with suggestions which would astound those around them, and propel them on to greater things. However, when my then boss decided it would be a great idea to take the live running time data for each trip, and use that to update the online timetables to show the times that the buses were really running, I thought it would be a good time to back out of this project !
Stagecoach Manchester were most proactive partners in the work, it has to be said, but the fact that only their "regular" 192s were tracker-equipped, and not the numerous duplicates which ran against UK North at the time, meant that the next-bus times that did appear at the test stops were pretty meaningless - the system may think that the next bus is 4 minutes down the road, but the convoy of alternate red and blue buses arriving at the stop told a different story !
First were also partners in the trial, with a view to installing equipment on one of their routes. However, their reluctance to have any live data captured and stored, and the consequent failure to make any further progress with them, was probably down to a fear of having their pitiful unreliability at the time exposed for all to see !
None of what is required is rocket signs or even particularly expensive but the Bus industry makes a real mess of it.
As another poster has said Taxi's and parclel couriers have accurate and reliable systems so why does the bus industry make such a total mess of it.
Most systems are very unreliable. Many have been installed several years ago but have never worked many others just show the tinme table time others are just a mess.
There are real advantages to having a real time system that works particularly when linked to the Internet.
The biggest problem with buses is there very poor relability & time keeping but that becomes much less of an issue if you can check if you bus is going to turn up and when it will turn up.
Having systems that dont work reliably just turns people away from buses as it just confirms how bad and unreliable most bus companies are
Anonymous said...
"None of what is required is rocket signs.."
Just like correct spelling, Mr Glum!
With mobile phones these days there doesn't need to be a display at every stop. QR codes or text messaging can provide the same information to just about everyone these days. I know one person who doesn't have a mobile phone- heck, even my 82-year-old grandmother-in-law is on Facebook and Twitter and has a mobile.
I use the nextbuses.mobi service that Traveline North East use and it works, but only when the bus operators allow it to. It works on text message and it works on 3G internet on a smartphone. Go North East are pretty engaging with the system, most of their buses have GPS tracking now and they tend to show a countdown rather than timetabled arrival, even for late buses. Arriva sometimes are OK and Stagecoach, for some reason, will not release any information whatsoever.
I use it mostly in urban areas, to be honest: should I wait for the bus or should I go get a coffee and come back in half an hour?
"None of what is required is rocket signs"
"Taxi's and parclel couriers"
"The biggest problem with buses is there very poor relability"
"check if you bus is going to turn up"
"Having systems that dont work reliably"
I'm not going to respond to the points, just highlight the grammar errors!
But how are we supposed to take Mr Glum seriously?
First line: "None of what is required is rocket signs or even particularly expensive."
Not particularly expensive!!!??? Real Time Information systems cost millions of pounds!
Surely the problem with trying to emulate the taxi systems is that buses run to fixed routes and to timetables? Taxis generally do not do so and one of the comments here says that the taxi controller interprets the info they have and then tell the customer over the phone where their taxi is or ETA.
Bus passengers want to know when their specific route & departure are due. This presumably involves more detail being held within the system and more info having to be provided to the customer. I'm not saying it is impossible just more involved and needs more thought and possibly more management. What I don't know is what operators get or want from these systems. I have some clue about what TfL get from I-Bus and I'd imagine a commercial operator would certainly want to assess how reliable a service is, whether there are regular time keeping issues or if there are any specific driver related concerns.
It's easy to say "simple systems" are the solution. Surely the basis has to be want customers really want to know and what operators really need to deliver efficiency / return on their investment?
You post is typical of the Industry. It is not about what the bus companies want from it but about what the passengers require & need
Thedifference between say Supermarkets & bus companies is like chalk & cheese
If Supermarket customers want something they find a way of doing it. With bus companies they find an excuse for not doing it.
VBus companies have totally no concept of customer service. It is totally alian to them
anonymous @ 0932. I think you don't understand how supermarkets work. They make it look like they are giving you what you want but the reality is that they are selling what is most in demand and what makes the best profit for them. They're only there to make money. This is why so much phsychology goes into deciding layouts, product locations, special offers etc. It's about getting you to spend too much on things with the biggest profit margins. To be honest I don't see bus companies doing the same thing.
There are too many times when I have gone to supermarkets to find that the product I want is
a) not stocked at all
b) not stocked in that particular branch
c) stocked but not available when I visit
d) available but at a ridiculous price.
Some of the above can apply to the most basic of items. This is because the supermarket made decisions about stock levels, delivery cycles etc that may be good for them but are not good for me. Too much of that and my business goes elsewhere. I have complained about the issues I refer to above and been told "sorry but you have to lump it as we're not going to change what we do" (or words to that effect). I don't see the supermarkets developing "real time stock information" systems for customers to interrogate?! I can't use an app on a phone to tell me if Sainsburys have cod fillets in stock at my nearest store. I can check if the bus is due that will take me to Sainsburys!
You accuse the bus industry of being unresponsive and yet plenty of other sectors, supermarkets included, are just as bad. I might suffer the odd late bus and sometimes fares are a bit steep but I don't bus operators indulging in the same trickery as supermarket businesses.
"Surely the problem with trying to emulate the taxi systems is that buses run to fixed routes and to timetables? Taxis generally do not do so and one of the comments here says that the taxi controller interprets the info they have and then tell the customer over the phone where their taxi is or ETA."
My main point earlier re. taxis was that it is usually the purely factual information about current location that is more useful to the passenger than the estimated ETA. It shouldn't be too difficult for bus operators to develop a GPS based system showing on a map the current location, speed and direction of all buses on a given route. Indeed I believe a number of operators already have such systems for internal use, so why not publish them online?
plcd1 said...
"I can't use an app on a phone to tell me if Sainsburys have cod fillets in stock at my nearest store."
True, but don't forget internet shops!
Ok so Sainsbury won't tell you if they have cod fillets, but B and Q tell me they have a Bosch 32cm Electric Rotary Lawnmower at my local branch (if I wanted one).
Bottom line is, if you can tell your customers when the bus is going to come, it improves the whole experience, and will help attract repeat business from those who don't have to travel by bus.
@ RC169. Agreed that there are internet shops. Decent bus operators offer information over the web and provide internet retailing for their tickets. As I know you'll know and for anonymous @ 1419 bus travel is instantly perishable. Once the journey has run that's it - no chance to stick on a shelf for tomorrow. That's one of the fundamental differences between transport and retailing of other products.
I am not suggesting for one second that real time info is not useful or beneficial. I use the TfL test info all the time and it's great - the BBC Click programme featured an I-Phone app today that uses the TfL info. Apparently the app is the most popular travel related app since its launch. Being able to use internet info to check on bus services worldwide is immensely helpful. All that has to happen is that the info provided is up to date and as accurate as it can be so people can rely on it and in turn trust the transport service they use.
plcd1 said...
"I use the TfL test info all the time and it's great - the BBC Click programme featured an I-Phone app today that uses the TfL info. Apparently the app is the most popular travel related app since its launch."
That's actually very interesting, because it confirms my impression that people expect to be able to get real time information. My earlier (slightly tongue in cheek) comment about internet shops was intended to make the same point - but without the benefit of statistics to back it up! Real time information is provided for some products, so people have become used to the idea of it, and expect it. They do, of course, not know how complex or expensive it is to gather such information! The evidence put forward in this debate suggests that it is far from easy to achieve, but not impossible.
It is, of course, also a case where the availability of something that previously didn't exist, has now generated a demand for it - to an extent that people are prepared indirectly to pay for it. I don't know if this app costs anything, but if you buy a smartphone in order to be able to use it (and others, no doubt), then you are indirectly paying for it. The supermarkets are no doubt doing this all of the time, so perhaps the bus operators should try to do the same. Or perhaps that explains why some operators are reluctant to release the information - because they have realised it has commercial value?
As plcd1 wrote on 15 October at 1525: "All that has to happen is that the info provided is up to date and as accurate as it can be so people can rely on it and in turn trust the transport service they use".
That is precisely the problem. Even non-public transport users are aware of apps and websites where they can access times and information.
Imagine the car owner has to take the vehicle to the garage for an MOT and then uses the smartphone to look up the 'nextbus', only to find that there doesn't appear to be one ... purely because the data has not been input correctly.
The earlier posts about location details are spot on too.
I'm afraid we have to go back to basics whereby rigorous checks are made to data before it is distributed to the wider world, both printed and electronic.
The 'fat bus bloke' details, on a daily basis, the inherent faults in information provision and I wonder why noone seems to take action.
Not a lot of point in providing excellent services if one can't find out about them.
RTPI projects often fail because the transport authorities seem to 'loose interest' after the initial glittering, headline grabbing launch and often fail to maintain the system, or don't establish proper processes with the operators to keep running board/timetable information current.
I often use the ACIS system in South/West Yorkshire who have over 2500 buses fitted since 2006, with almost all of the large operators involved in the system. It works well and the predictions are very good, however it lacks real time info from the operators themselves when buses are cancelled, not running, etc.
As is often the case with these systems however, a number of vehicles seem to have been faulty for a while and the budget for maintenance of the equipment is perhaps not high enough.
With equipment being very 'system specific', operators also tend to be reluctant to fit their entire fleet with one counties system, when their buses may be transferred to another depot.
It's a shame that the government didn't just bite the bullet and introduce a national interoperable system where operators could be confident that it's going to work all-over the county, bring them benefits and that there is substantial management behind the scenes to maintain it.
David said:
"With mobile phones these days there doesn't need to be a display at every stop. QR codes or text messaging can provide the same information to just about everyone these days."
That's as maybe but I don't agree. Why should I, as a passenger, have to do the leg-work and perhaps pay for the cost of a text when the information can be (ought to be?) available to everyone at the bus stop? As has been said, the Brighton system has been running successfully for years, nothing else in my experience even gets close. Okay, some people might sometimes decide to walk because there isn't a bus due imminently but, no doubt, there are other people who do catch the bus just because they can tell one is due even if it's not yet visible. These bus stop displays, together with on-bus next stop displays (and announcements on the latest buses) linked to the bells and GPS system make travelling in the area simple. My only complaint is that not every stop has a display…. you get so used to checking them! Heck, there's even one inside an ASDA store. As a bonus, they ain't half helpful to photographers too…. but that's probably not the main reason for their existence!
@ Anon 0924:
That's as maybe but I don't agree. Why should I, as a passenger, have to do the leg-work and perhaps pay for the cost of a text when the information can be (ought to be?) available to everyone at the bus stop?
I don't mean timetable information: that should be available at every stop.
But putting in countdown boards at every stop in the country would be prohibitively expensive, and also a little pointless. On my busy cross-city route there are bus stops where I can say, hand on heart, it's once a month where the bus stops to pick up someone. Text messaging can work just as well.
That said, I don't see why Traveline charge so much to send a text to them. 25p? Haway.
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