Unless Stagecoach merges with Go Ahead or there’s some other major development, we intend focusing tomorrow on part of a region we don’t usually cover. But today, it’s back to the East Midlands and England’s most colourful operator. That’s literally and increasingly metaphorically speaking. It’s Trent Barton. Who else?
Indeed, we need to elicit the help of the Omnibuses’ Blog Army. Without your help, we can only guess the reasons why Trent Barton seems to be behaving so oddly. Is it a conspiracy, a conflict or a cock-up? For, it’s registered in significant competition against its friend Felix… but it only lasts for about nine days.
Picture courtesy Derby Bus Depot
Felix of Derby operates the Black Cat and the Ilkeston Flyer jointly with Trent Barton. Come 24th October 2011, Trent Barton has registered journeys five minutes ahead of both these Felix services, including during the evenings. Bizarrely, Trent Barton’s cancelled those additions nine days later and the last day of operation is a Wednesday, to boot. If you’re wondering whether all this is legitimate, the evidence is online on Traveline East Midlands from timetables generated by Derbyshire council. See code 1 which reads, “From 24/10/11 to 2/11/11”.
Felix is a long-standing operator on the Derby to Ilkeston corridor that predates both 1931 regulation & 1986 deregulation. Both it and Trent operated the 12 & 120 though Trent’s 120 extended to Mansfield via Heanor. Some 10 years ago, the two were marketed together as the Black Cat, no doubt because Felix used to use a cat logo till it faced the threat of legal action from the owners of Felix the Cat, the silent film era cartoon creation. Felix’s contingent on the Black Cat is actually red & white whereas Felix’s Flyer buses are branded identically to Trent Barton’s.So much for history. What’s happening next month? It’s over to you. Can anyone help? Perhaps:
- Trent Barton was going to buy Felix but it fell through.
- Someone else was going to buy Felix and Trent Barton didn’t relish that.
- Fleix was for sale but didn’t wish to sell to Trent Barton
- There was a huge falling out 56 days before the variation and a reconciliation none days later. Or, perhaps the variation prompted a reconciliation.
- Trent Barton sensed that Felix was about to compete with it.
- Trent Barton feels the best form of defence is attack, rather like in recent skirmishes.
- An error on either Trent Barton’s, Traveline’s, Derbyshire’s or VOSA’s part.
- Someone’s having a laugh.
- Or may be I’m daydreaming the lot.
45 comments:
This is just the latest in a long line of strange and/or controversial actions that have damaged Trent Barton’s previously enviable reputation for excellence, innovation and co-operation. It all seemed to start with the appointment of Alex Hornby and he seems to be involved in a suspiciously high percentage of these incidents.
Well i did hear Mr Greaves was looking for a new cat.
Beep Beep!
Normally Ilkeston fair starts 2 weeks after nottingham's Goose fair (goose fair starts first Thursday in October) but the timings don't seem quite right. Ilkeston's street fair is I belive the 1st or 2nd largest street fair in the country & bus services in the area are absolutly packed. This is the only explanation I can see for this action. Although it dosn't explain 9 days, the fair is held for a maximum of 3-5 days. For the first time too trentbarton are running a special service from/to nottingham city to Goose fair this year. Now this must also be treading on NCT's toes too as NCT have always ran the Goose fair specials.
"Strange and controversial" - well thats sums up Mr Hornby perfectly!!!!
@pe251lz
Well it's not for Ilkeston Fair as this year it's being held 19th to 22nd October.
---So perhaps one of Mister Busing's theories about sale of business or potential competition is right, and TB have found themselves trapped in the registration process after reaching an agreement (or seeing off the threat)---
anon@ 0831, 1112
Didnt people say the same thing when he was at Bluestar - despite that being a success? Or are you the same people?
Oh dear, not commenters posting personal attacks on people in the industry again...
It can't go on forever before it causes something bad to happen to the blog.
If it's not for the fun fair then I'm as puzzled as the next....
Hoping this is just some kind of bizarre error & Trent's corrected it, if it's an error perhaps Trent should run these services "late" & let Felix go just in front lol
Anyone remember Kinchbus killing off the south notts bus co. forcing the sale of southnotts to NCT then kinchbus selling out to trentbarton at the same time? Luckily Filix has it's loyal customers & will still be around for many more years to come IMO.
@13:37
I agree. Well said.
Any of you wanting personal attacks should visit nottingham's vast Facebook pages!! Lol
Plenty to choose from....
Can't explain the 9 days though Traveline does sometimes end up with some quirky data. Unfortunately, it seems just as likely that the once-proud Trent has done something fairly odd. No idea why, but they do seem to have rather lost the plot in the past year or so.
Whoever Anonymous was at 8.31, he/she seems to have pretty much said what I wanted to.
The Cotgrave debacle was very unbecoming, and I suspect has not gome away yet.
Notts and Derby (not trentbarton) won the tender to do the Goose Fair shuttle, beating NCT by a short head, I believe. I doubt they'll make much money doing it, and I hope the service will be more reliable than Notts and Derby's attempts at the test match park and ride this summer.
Mr Belfield has picked an interesting time to join Wellglade.
Hmmm. Not sure why Cotgrave is referred to as a debacle. All it seemed to do was demonstrate that Cotgrave is not a particularly good route financially, given that neither Red 2 or Bargain Bus carried very many passengers, at least on the various journeys I sampled. There were certainly not sufficient passengers to justify the extra 3 buses that Premiere put on 5 minutes ahead of the existing Trent Barton journeys. Any regular observers of the Nottingham bus scene could have told Premiere that before it all started.
Regarding the Derby-Ilkeston corridor, it all looks odd, as Busing says, but there has been word on the street locally that Trent Barton will be taking over the Felix journeys at some point in the future, leaving Felix to concentrate on their other operations. This will be a shame, as Felix has been going since 1921, and is the last traditional (as opposed to post de-regulation) independent on full time local bus services in Derby.
"Didnt people say the same thing when he was at Bluestar - despite that being a success?"
Obviously not written by someone who ever worked for him . . . and no I'm not the same person who wrote the original comment.
But did he or did he not improve Bluestar...?
We broke this news on Twitter last night.
Felix drivers have been informed by letter that Trent Barton want sole operation of the Black Cat and Ilkeston Flyer services. If Felix do not give in, TB would register services 5 minutes in front of all their commercial journeys. This, as your entry details, took place, though has since been cancelled.
We understand that TB got wind of Premier being in conversation with Felix about a possible purchase or merger, though written into the Felix constitution, as it were, is that the firm cannot be sold while it is returning a profit, so we would presume this fell through, though not before TB flexed its muscles.
Irrespective of the background, it is not the behaviour one would expect an image-conscious company like TB to display.
It is very ironic that TB named its Service 120 'Black Cat' after their competing operator, Felix, which used a black cat logo until two years ago after it faced legal action from US-based Felix Corp.
Hmmmm. These puerile personal attacks seem to have more than a whiff of personal jealousy about them!
My impression is that Wellglade's top brass are still very much involved and hands on in the business despite their very public semi-retirements. I suspect they have knowledge and a hand in every decision made still.
So if they've now had a change of heart, I think that - as pe251lz said - running their attacking journeys late and letting the Felix ones go first would be in order...
Revised strapline... 'The really up to no good bus company '?
"Felix drivers have been informed by letter that Trent Barton want sole operation of the Black Cat and Ilkeston Flyer services. If Felix do not give in, TB would register services 5 minutes in front of all their commercial journeys."
Bully boys.
"Irrespective of the background, it is not the behaviour one would expect an image-conscious company like TB to display."
Absolutely. I always rated TB very highly but ion the last 12 months...
All very interesting reading! For those who do not understand how trent barton works (a few don't here, it seems!), our decisions are based on what we term 'cabinet responsibility'.
Many decisions find their root in one of our 20 research projects per year, some are fed to us via suggestions from customers through our customer services team, some from our front line team and through our company 'information from the ground up, direction down' structure and some at our fortnightly 'think tank' brainstorm sessions (the latter, as CD, I chair - although it is a very open, informal session for the commercial team to get involved in).
Sometimes, final approval involves our majority shareholders and sometimes not, but we are a close team and our common bond is that we all enjoy and remain deeply passionate about what we do.
Not sure whether I should be flattered or offended by some of these remarks here, but I don't hide from feedback. Perhaps those who enjoy personal attacks anonymously here, but who are interested in our company, what we do and why we do it, may want to email me at alex@trentbarton.co.uk should you wish to debate or discuss further. Don't expect me to reveal our corporate secrets, but I may be able to at least defend what we do on a more level playing field!
All very interesting reading! For those who do not understand how trent barton works (a few don't here, it seems!), our decisions are based on what we term 'cabinet responsibility'.
Many decisions find their root in one of our 20 research projects per year, some are fed to us via suggestions from customers through our customer services team, some from our front line team and through our company 'information from the ground up, direction down' structure and some at our fortnightly 'think tank' brainstorm sessions (the latter, as CD, I chair - although it is a very open, informal session for the commercial team to get involved in).
Sometimes, final approval involves our majority shareholders and sometimes not, but we are a close team and our common bond is that we all enjoy and remain deeply passionate about what we do.
Not sure whether I should be flattered or offended by some of these remarks here, but I don't hide from feedback. Perhaps those who enjoy personal attacks anonymously here, but who are interested in our company, what we do and why we do it, may want to email me at alex@trentbarton.co.uk should you wish to debate or discuss further. Don't expect me to reveal our corporate secrets, but I may be able to at least defend what we do on a more level playing field!
Alex, i think what people don't understand is why after several years of cooperating with Felix, your company has now launched an aggressive attack on them. It seems this has been done to force them into a sale, or to give up their service work.
There was also Bargain bus which seemed to try and erradicate Gills Travel, a small independant operating in the Long Eaton area.
It is the latest in a line of "odd" decisions which never used to be made.
Trent is a commercial company. Why is it 'odd' that they try and defend their market against possible attack by others.
Surely most on here would do the same if their business was facing similar competition?
That said there is always the danagers that decisions that are rushed through (because you are reacting) can sometimes be poor/wrong one's as by definition you don't have the time to fully research/test/discuss these decisions.
Think I may side with Will on this one.....,
It's a shame the "Felix" situation has developed like it has.
Another interesting thing here is "possible merger/ takeover by premiere"!!! Where is the money comming from?
Thanks alex for your explanation.
Anonymous said...
"Alex, i think what people don't understand is why after several years of cooperating with Felix, your company has now launched an aggressive attack on them."
That's precisely the point.
The internet's potential for anonymity is a two-edged sword. On the one hand, we probably would not have had as much information about events in places like Syria in recent weeks without it; on the other hand, it can be abused by people who can exercise bravado and say things that they would never say if they knew that they could be identified. In that respect I understand Alex Hornby's concerns. Unfortunately there is no easy solution - requiring all commenters to login would be one possible method; simply removing the offending comments as soon as possible is another, and may be the most effective, but that creates more (rather frustrating) work for Busing.
But as Anon above says, Alex Hornby's comment doesn't explain what is happening in respect to the Felix operations. It also does not answer the serious allegations contained in LEYTR's comment at 21:16 yesterday. These are questions to which Trent Barton must have answers - one is something that TB has done, and is in the pubic domain, so there must be an official explanation. The other is an allegation about TB, again they must at least have a position on the veracity of that allegation. So it is, to say the least, curious, that Alex Hornby has not taken the opportunity to present the official TB line on these issues. That will no doubt lead to more speculation, most of which will be unhelpful to all concerned.
It is interesting that a number of the discussions on the blog this week have involved the information policies of bus operators. Or perhaps that should be 'lack of information' policies!
Maybe just the more dominant cat marking its territory - either to fend off any potential buyer of Felix by showing them what's to come or to secure felix at a bargain price for themselves.
Anonymous said...
"Alex, i think what people don't understand is why after several years of cooperating with Felix, your company has now launched an aggressive attack on them."
That's precisely the point.
The internet's potential for anonymity is a two-edged sword. On the one hand, we probably would not have had as much information about events in places like Syria in recent weeks without it; on the other hand, it can be abused by people who can exercise bravado and say things that they would never say if they knew that they could be identified. In that respect I understand Alex Hornby's concerns. Unfortunately there is no easy solution - requiring all commenters to login would be one possible method; simply removing the offending comments as soon as possible is another, and may be the most effective, but that creates more (rather frustrating) work for Busing.
But as Anon above says, Alex Hornby's comment doesn't explain what is happening in respect to the Felix operations. It also does not answer the serious allegations contained in LEYTR's comment at 21:16 yesterday. These are questions to which Trent Barton must have answers - one is something that TB has done, and is in the pubic domain, so there must be an official explanation. The other is an allegation about TB, again they must at least have a position on the veracity of that allegation. So it is, to say the least, curious, that Alex Hornby has not taken the opportunity to present the official TB line on these issues. That will no doubt lead to more speculation, most of which will no doubt be unhelpful to all concerned.
It is interesting that a number of the discussions on the blog this week have involved the information policies of bus operators. Or perhaps that should be 'lack of information' policies!
Yet again though another long established indpendent being forced into a sale by a big company
Anonymous said...
"Alex, i think what people don't understand is why after several years of cooperating with Felix, your company has now launched an aggressive attack on them."
That's precisely the point.
The internet's potential for anonymity is a two-edged sword. On the one hand, we probably would not have had as much information about events in places like Syria in recent weeks without it; on the other hand, it can be abused by people who can exercise bravado and say things that they would never say if they knew that they could be identified. In that respect I understand Alex Hornby's concerns. Unfortunately there is no easy solution - requiring all commenters to login would be one possible method; simply removing the offending comments as soon as possible is another, and may be the most effective, but that creates more (rather frustrating) work for Busing.
But as Anon above says, Alex Hornby's comment doesn't explain what is happening in respect to the Felix operations. It also does not answer the serious allegations contained in LEYTR's comment at 21:16 yesterday. These are questions to which Trent Barton must have answers - one is something that TB has done, and is in the pubic domain, so there must be an official explanation. The other is an allegation about TB, again they must at least have a position on the veracity of that allegation. So it is, to say the least, curious, that Alex Hornby has not taken the opportunity to present the official TB line on these issues. That will no doubt lead to more speculation, most of which will no doubt be unhelpful to all concerned.
It is interesting that a number of the discussions on the blog this week have involved the information policies of bus operators. Or perhaps that should be 'lack of information' policies!
Guys - (hopefully) a final comment from me. As has been pointed out, we are a commercial business, and - often - for the reason we are, sometimes we make decisions that some people don't agree with.
Often, such decisions are often in the long-term interests of our customers, our company and the people we employ.
As nothing has been said so far about the upcoming activity on these two brands, it would be inappropriate for me to comment further here, but - needless to say - all will become clear in the future, and it differs greatly from much of the speculation made here.
I think it is fairly safe to say that either:
a) trent barton have come to a deal with Felix to take over the Black Cat and Ilkeston Flyer operations completely.
b) Felix have decided not to sell, and continue operating in cooperation with Trent.
That said i could be wrong, as no official announcement has been made. Its a wait and see.
Small operators are facing a tough time with council funding being cut, and contracts for schools and tendered routes being lost.
Would Felix not have lost out when trent barton increased the Ilkeston Flyer frequency to every 20 minutes (from 30, 2 trent, 1 felix journey), meaning that Felix would potentially only get 1/3 of the passengers as opposed to half?
There is no need for personal attacks on this website, and im sure trent barton know what they are doing.
TB are a commercial operation, and they can do whatever they like, provided it is withing the law or legislation.One would hardly expect them to reveal company strategy on a public forum. You don't show the enemy your arsenal or tactics.
Independents are always likely to be prey to bigger concerns,more so now things are getting tight. Everyone sells at aprice...even the big five may ! Let's just hope we all remember that law of the jungle if TB become the prey to one of the current big five. They must be looking quite tasty to someone like GA,as they would fit the group profile nicely given their non-corporate image and strong local identity. What goes around, comes around.
The comments on here reflect what many may be saying. Trent Barton appears to be changing its business model. However,all credit to AH for coming on and setting (part of) the record straight.
Didn't quite word my final comment right (that's not like me with my perfect spelling & grammar lol) I'm getting curious where premiere are being bankrolled from. Basically how can they expand, purchase, take on two local big boys (but mainly tb) on the back of a couple of commercial routes, some charging ridiculously low fares & council tenders. I'm I being suspicious thinking a "big 5" is wanting to undermine the local bus scene using premiere then move in buying premiere?
Ah, so is Premiere looking like Delta Bus Mark Two ? The Mansfield-based outfit that was once merely a taxi operator, but went on to annoy pretty well everyone in the East Midlands (but principally Trent), and was only later unearthed as having been backed by West Midlands Travel.
I doubt very much that WMT/TWM would have any interest nowadays, but I will leave it to the conspiracy theorists to come up with some other juicy suggestions !
pe251lz
A similar question to one i have asked before on different forums.
However, one answer may be that Premiere have 4 coaches for sale on Ebay at the minute.
Don't read anything into the sale of the four coaches , its the three dennis r series ones and a 2006 Volvo b12m which is mid engine so not the best for locker space. They were due to leave the fleet this year anyway. Remember they had three brand New Scania Irizar pb limted edtions on order , but only brought one as the money was needed to fund the purchase of Veolia Nottingham or rather the money was used to pay for the Seven University Hopper buses ( the two Volvo Gemini's alone im told are £220k each). And remember this week is coach and bus live maybe something else is coming. WELL DONE TO MR HORNBY FOR DEFENDING HIMSELF , I sent him a message via twitter and all about Felix will come out when its ready to.
http://www.busandcoach.com/newspage.aspx?id=6033&categoryid=0
I guess it's allright for Alex to be nice to his customers and 'safeguard' the timetable then.
Maybe one should be a little more careful before believing rumours!
black cat driver says, felix has sold out to trent last week.
I suppose selling out and getting a decent return is preferable to being steamrollered out of existence. So TB gets what it wants and is happy.....
Has Felix been sold to Trent, or are Trent just trying to get more people onto their bus by saying that Felix have sold out to them? The last I heard was that Trent was running the service until 2nd of November, and then we, as customers, were going to see what would happen from there. I'll keep an eye on the forum for any more updates on the Felix v Trent situation, as I believe Felix should have the right to stay in business
Thanks Ian Middup (NOT) 90years down the drain. R.I.P felix
As a former driver at felix, I know the management is all wrong there. They have no idea how to run the company and it was no suprise when i heard the company had been sold. It has been mis managed for years now , and i'm suprised its lasted this long. Norman will be turning in his grave. They have a great bunch of drivers there and i would like to wish them all luck for the future.
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